tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352648376305239677.post2722850061524478449..comments2023-10-20T08:32:14.040-04:00Comments on Heaving Dead Cats: Unexpected Friendship With A Palin LoverAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12653141544095753595noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352648376305239677.post-16485121668932646572010-07-18T07:25:00.000-04:002010-07-18T07:25:00.000-04:00My experience has been that most of the "reli...My experience has been that most of the "religious" people I know are definitely very nice. Same with the politically over-the-edge, right-wing folks. I think (just speculating) that the really vocal ones are in the minority. Perhaps a lot of the "nice" ones I know think the same way and vote the same way, but as long as politics or religion aren't brought up as a conversational topic, they seem genuinely nice.<br><br>There are, of course, a few exceptions, too, but they just add to the variety. Ha!<br><br>It sounds to me like you're going about things the right way with Steve. I hope it works out for your sis-in-law.Dan Gilberthttp://www.rationalitynow.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352648376305239677.post-51988177414820854902010-07-18T10:36:08.000-04:002010-07-18T10:36:08.000-04:00"Scoffed! I didn’t want to get into it since ..."Scoffed! I didn’t want to get into it since we were heading home but I immediately found myself feeling cold toward him."<br><br>Yeah, scoffing can do that. I think that natural, understandable tendency to take offense is what the "don't be a dick" crowd base their criticism of more vocal atheists/skeptics on. I think many of their accusations of dickishness are exaggerated and off base, but that it's good to remember that it's easy to leave a bad impression on people based solely on one little interaction. <br><br>"It leads me to wonder, are the vast majority of republicans and christians more like Steve? Are they relatively nice people who are not stupid, or even smart? Good, honest people who are just misguided in politics because of how they were raised or values they got from church?"<br><br>I think yes, yes, and yes. Most people just don't bother to question what's around them, and if they have an entire community that reinforces their beliefs they're less likely to consider the roots of those beliefs. If we had no evidence that the Earth is round, and everyone around us said it was flat, then many of us probably would just not devote any time to questioning it and go on about our daily lives.<br><br>"if people like Steve would happily vote for Palin because of her “good ideas and folksy charm” doesn’t that make him a serious part of the problem, even if he’s a relatively nice guy?"<br><br>Yes. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. :) <br><br>"Are Steve and I going about this the right way? By eschewing political and religious debates and arguments, are we missing an opportunity?"<br><br>If you're talking about approaching your differences with Steve from an activist view, then no, I don't think you're missing an opportunity. It's possible to have a friendship that has nothing to do with shared religious or political beliefs, especially when it involves relatives. <br><br>Personally, I'd just approach it from a different angle - I wouldn't bring up religion or politics to him, but if he brings up his beliefs, use it as an opportunity to learn from him. Next time he says Palin has good ideas, avoid scoffing or seeming shocked and ask him what they are, then ask him what it is about those ideas that he likes, and so on. Genuine curiosity and simple respect go a long way. Let him think for himself, and if at any point he seems like he's feeling attacked or defensive then stop. Chances are good that you can find something in what he says that you agree with, so if it's time to change the subject you can just say "I do agree that there's a problem with X/I share your frustrations with X", etc., and then move on to a different topic. If he feels comfortable and that he's being respected, he may at some point be interested in learning about why you have a different opinion than him, and then he can ask.<br><br>I think this whole Palin worship/Tea Party thing is mostly a reaction to feeling hopeless about politics, and if we look past the rhetoric what remains are mostly (with scary exceptions) frustrated, frightened individuals who are just trying to find something they can get behind. There is a lot of hatred and stupidity in the rhetoric, it's hard to get past it, but the movement is thriving on people who are looking for easy answers. I think that being raised in a religious environment lends to that sort of mindset, and it is a cognitive behavioral issue. Sometimes we just have to live our lives and find what positive connections we can. And treating your sister-in-law well and making her happy are pretty damn positive things.Barbara_Knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352648376305239677.post-50643213605860466512010-07-18T11:09:41.000-04:002010-07-18T11:09:41.000-04:00Oof. This sounds like a tough situation. You asked...Oof. This sounds like a tough situation. You asked, "if people like Steve would happily vote for Palin because of her 'good ideas and folksy charm' doesn’t that make him a serious part of the problem, even if he’s a relatively nice guy?" I would say yes, he's part of the problem. But the thing is, he's part of a *collective action* problem. It's a very bad idea for any one individual to wreck their personal friendships for the sake of trying to solve -- well, not even solve, but slightly reduce -- this problem. The cost vs. benefit just tips that way. I second Barbara_K's suggestions of something like the Socratic method. That might be a friendly middle ground, where you can start to have these conversations without instantly being at each other's throats. (It's worked for me with some religious friends of mine; things are still sort of tense but I think they have some understanding of why I disagree with them. I think of it as "seed planting." They may not change their minds right away, but perhaps I've helped start something.) And this is also where I think things like blogging and other types of more general activism can be valuable. Everyone's making the arguments to an audience of everyone, rather than *you* having to make the arguments to *Steve* specifically. When I want to scream at someone for buying into stupid ideas even though they seem smart -- I pour my heart and soul (metaphorically, of course ;) ) into blogging.NFQhttp://www.noforbiddenquestions.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352648376305239677.post-19236631095184450952010-07-18T21:31:07.000-04:002010-07-18T21:31:07.000-04:00If you figure it out let me know. I've got on...If you figure it out let me know. I've got one relative who's an apologist for the teabaggers and another who rants and raves about the "evil Socialists who are taking over our country"--while benefiting mightily from the evils of things like Social Security, Medicaid and other "socialist" policies. Both parrot nonsense from Faux Newz and other RW propaganda outlets. Neither is stupid or evil, yet neither can get why their views are so totally screwy.Buffyhttp://www.lavenderliberal.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352648376305239677.post-53950475494784292952010-07-19T01:43:11.000-04:002010-07-19T01:43:11.000-04:00Barbara_K is spot on. When I encounter someone who...Barbara_K is spot on. When I encounter someone who has unsound views (in my opinion) I gently encourage them to speak and explain how they see things. Quite often when they have to say them out loud they realise how unfair they are being and shut up straight away. Sometimes they even trail off mid-sentence.....<br>I also think you are right to go softly on discussing religion and politics with Steve, for your sister's sake. However, Martha herself ought to be having those conversations so she can better know the man she is hooking up with.prayforrainhttp://irreligiousperspective.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352648376305239677.post-40305444668952917012010-07-20T16:47:50.000-04:002010-07-20T16:47:50.000-04:00Thanks for your perspective, Dan. I'm basicall...Thanks for your perspective, Dan. I'm basically a hermit so I don't have a lot of interaction with people. So this is rather new to me. <br>I'm glad to know you think I'm going about things the right way with Steve. :) And I'm really glad Martha is so happy with him. :)Neecehttp://www.heavingdeadcats.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352648376305239677.post-35408109352516456062010-07-20T16:55:22.000-04:002010-07-20T16:55:22.000-04:00Thanks Barbara! :)No, I never bring up religion or...Thanks Barbara! :)<br>No, I never bring up religion or politics. He doesn't either so we don't talk about it which seems like the right way to go about it. If he decides to bring it up, I would definitely go about it like you suggested.<br>I totally agree with your Palin worship theory. People like easy answers they can get behind.Neecehttp://www.heavingdeadcats.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352648376305239677.post-1048170513485752942010-07-20T16:58:06.000-04:002010-07-20T16:58:06.000-04:00Excellent point, NFQ. Thanks. I like the idea of j...Excellent point, NFQ. Thanks. I like the idea of just using the Socratic method if it ever comes up. I also like the idea of first just showing by example that atheists are good people. So that he can see we're not baby-eating monsters. I think that's valuable too, even if we never talk about anything.<br>I like the idea of seed planting. :)Neecehttp://www.heavingdeadcats.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352648376305239677.post-3352348321769491772010-07-20T17:00:45.000-04:002010-07-20T17:00:45.000-04:00Oh Buffy, that's frustrating. I think as I sai...Oh Buffy, that's frustrating. I think as I said above, the best way to handle it, from what I've gathered and my own personal perspective, is to lead by example; to show those kinds of people that atheists/freethinkers/skeptics/what have you, are good people who live normal lives (basically, lol). <br>I think once a person has a belief, it's very hard to get past that with any kind of reason or argument.Neecehttp://www.heavingdeadcats.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352648376305239677.post-20851239290793903452010-07-20T17:03:29.000-04:002010-07-20T17:03:29.000-04:00I agree, Prayforrain. I think if I were in love wi...I agree, Prayforrain. I think if I were in love with someone who had radically different views than me, I'd want to at least understand where he or she was coming from. I think it's nice to have similar values with the person you share your life with. I don't think I could be in a deep relationship with someone I was diametrically opposed to on fundamental issues. But then again, I'm not faced with that problem, so I don't know how I'd actually deal with it if it happened to me in my life.Neecehttp://www.heavingdeadcats.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352648376305239677.post-33831628618738387132010-07-24T07:42:10.000-04:002010-07-24T07:42:10.000-04:00Of course they are nice people, or at least the va...Of course they are nice people, or at least the vast majority. I have a similar relationship with my [edited], and there are some topics we just avoid. I think he is an idiot about politics, and I'm pretty sure he feels the same way about me, but we set that aside because family is more important than politics. <br><br>>Sometimes the best way is to lead by example.<br><br>That's the only way, because once people become set in their views (conservative or liberal) they "wall up" and are unlikely to listen to any opposing views. If you lead by example there is at least a chance they might change their mind on their own.Tomato Addicthttp://dreadtomatoaddiction.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352648376305239677.post-23984664451334308422010-07-28T02:18:49.000-04:002010-07-28T02:18:49.000-04:00Most people are nice people. It's as simple as...Most people are nice people. It's as simple as that, really.Franshttp://fransdejonge.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352648376305239677.post-9942671604072445592010-07-28T02:34:49.001-04:002010-07-28T02:34:49.001-04:00Right! That's what I was thinking! :DRight! That's what I was thinking! :DNeecehttp://www.heavingdeadcats.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352648376305239677.post-30773599795256619082010-07-28T02:34:49.000-04:002010-07-28T02:34:49.000-04:00I would like to think so. :)I would like to think so. :)Neecehttp://www.heavingdeadcats.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352648376305239677.post-92161778551414000852011-01-06T05:50:24.000-05:002011-01-06T05:50:24.000-05:00Serial killers can be really nice people too. In ...Serial killers can be really nice people too. In fact, once a serial killer is caught you often hear people that knew them say "he/she seemed like such a nice person!".Kristynoreply@blogger.com