
This is ludicrous and terribly backwards. By labeling us, they have started the "holy war" against atheists. Not us. In my 39 years, I've never met a militant atheist. But I have seen and dealt with many militant, close-minded, hateful, fundamentalist religious folks.
So words are very important.
Hess was looking up synonyms for atheist on Dictionary.com for our new project (as you can see, we settled on Heaving Dead Cats) and pointed out something rather irritating.

a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Then it conveniently lists synonyms.
Synonyms: Atheist, agnostic, infidel, skeptic refer to persons not inclined toward religious belief or a particular form of religious belief. An atheist is one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings. An agnostic is one who believes it impossible to know anything about God or about the creation of the universe and refrains from commitment to any religious doctrine. Infidel means an unbeliever, especially a nonbeliever in Islam or Christianity. A skeptic doubts and is critical of all accepted doctrines and creeds.
Ok, this isn't so bad. This is from Dictionary.com's first listing.
But down near the bottom of that page, Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary has a quote about atheism:
Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall.
Ok, I'm not trying to nitpick, but that quote is ridiculous. First, it's completely false, and second, it's negative and biased. When giving a quote that helps explain a word, wouldn't it be more useful and more positive to use a neutral thought, or even a positive one?
The Online Etymology Dictionary in the middle of the page was able to do just that:
"The existence of a world without God seems to me less absurd than the presence of a God, existing in all his perfection, creating an imperfect man in order to make him run the risk of Hell." [Armand Salacrou, "Certitudes et incertitudes," 1943]
Ok, over to the Thesaurus tab and this is interesting as well.
atheist has 3 synonyms: agnostic, heathen, pagan.
Are you kidding me? Agnostic and atheist are 2 completely different ways of thinking. We'll have to define heathen and pagan.
heathen's second definition is: 2. an irreligious, uncultured, or uncivilized person.
Down to Websters's to see how they list heathen:
1. An individual of the pagan or unbelieving nations, or those which worship idols and do not acknowledge the true God; a pagan; an idolater.
Now onto pagan:
1. one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greeks.
2. a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.
3. an irreligious or hedonistic person.
I've always thought of pagans as having many gods. But I see the term has come to mean not christian, jew or muslim. So in that respect it fits.

1. An individual of the pagan or unbelieving nations, or those which worship idols and do not acknowledge the true God; a pagan; an idolater.
Ok then. Good to know. Call me a heathen or a pagan. The terms loosely fit. But I'm an atheist through and through. Definitely not an agnostic.
But I've learned that Webster's dictionary is quite biased towards christianity. Good for us to know!
I especially like the Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary version:
ReplyDeleteheathen [ˈhiːðən] noun, adjective (of) a person who believes in a less advanced form of religion, especially one with many gods Example: Missionaries
I wasn't aware there was a scale for measuring how 'advanced' one myth is over another :P
I've never heard of that dictionary, thanks for sharing it, Hess. Yeah, who knew there were different 'degrees' of fairy tales and myths! :D
ReplyDeleteDoes it really have that example in there? Missionaries? That's FUNNY! LOL :D
Few things annoy me more than getting into yet another debate over the meaning of labels. Especially how to properly differentiate atheism and agnosticism.
ReplyDeleteI think Webster, to be fair, should replace their definition of Christianity with this one:
Christianity (n) : The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
Sorry to annoy you, James. Didn't mean to beat a dead horse. But I thought it was important to point out.
ReplyDeleteAnd I agree with you, that definition for christianity is much more accurate. :P
You misunderstood me. I am not annoyed with you. I meant that I get annoyed when debating the meaning of labels with believers simply because I find myself constantly trying to correct them. This post was excellent and necessary for just that reason.
ReplyDeleteOH! Okey dokey then, James! :D :D :D
ReplyDeleteLOL @ Atheism is a ferocious system.
ReplyDeleteThe synonyms have me thinking WTF?! Pagan? Pagans believe in many gods/goddesses. Most pratice magick, tarot, and other tools of divinty.
Ferocious! Rawr, grrrrr! Lookout, here come them rabid atheists again and they've got Oujia boards this time! runnnnn!
ReplyDeleteSounds like a lot of atheists I know, always playing with tarot cards, chicken bones and shrunken heads.
I'm with you James, especially in this case. It's the freaking dictionary! Come on! When I found those definitions and synonyms I mentioned it to Neece in passing, more humorously than anything...to think I was going to let it go as a cheap laugh.
I'm still trying to figure out the afor mentioned"scale" of advancement in terms of myths and supernatural boogey-men...
I am right there with you, Neece. I'm not technically an Atheist, I suppose, but I am definitely agnostic. I choose to live my life as if there is no god, because to me, there is no logical evidence to prove otherwise.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, I too feel the stigma of not associating with any religion, especially since I live in the bible belt. I don't know how many times I've heard that it is impossible to have morals without religion, and to not be religious automatically makes you a bad person.
I am NOT a bad person. Some Atheists and Agnostics I know are "bad" people, but some religious people I know are bad people as well.
I do not push my views on anyone who doesn't push theirs on mine.
I do not go out of my way to harm others.
I feel that anyone should be able to live their life as they see fit, as long as they do not willingly/knowingly harm others
It doesn't matter though, even if I was the best, most charitable person on the planet. Not believing in god automatically makes me evil in the eyes of many of the people I encounter.
It just doesn't make sense.
Did anyone else take offense to "uncivilized"?
ReplyDeleteI've been dubbed a pagan by those who won't accept that I'm an atheist. When I first read the definition I refuted the statement.
You have Albert Einstein on your Monkey picture. You should of researched to find that he actually believed there was a creator according to his own writings. I wonder how many more you put up there that where decietful. Silly monkey
ReplyDeleteHad Ashley actually researched Einstein she would know that he did not believe in a personal god who is active in the world and often used the word god figuratively.
ReplyDeleteAshley, instead of just parroting talking points, you might want to actually LEARN stuff.
ReplyDeleteEinstein didn't believe in a personal god.
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." ~ Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/einstein.htm
And you, too, evolved from strange little creatures from the sea. Your cultivated ignorance just forbids you from understanding it. It doesn't make it any less true.
Thanks, James. :D You're right.
ReplyDeleteWhat's the difference between an atheist and a Christian? Give up? Nothing. Both groups believe something blindly without evidence for or against their cause. This is why I'm an agnostic. There's a good chance that science and technology will transform us into beings we would currently consider god-like in power.
ReplyDeleteNow, who's to say that some alien civilization somewhere (assuming we're not the first conscious beings in the universe) didn't already achieve this god-like state that humanity is nearing? Possible, isn't it (likely, even)? Even more, who's to say that these god-like beings didn't sprinkle their genetically engineered cocktail of bacteria on our planet to eventually give rise to a super-race like them? I guess that's possible too, huh?
While I will admit that if there are god-like beings in this universe, they are most likely passive. However, you can't honestly believe that the human brain is the pinnacle of evolution, can you? Do you think we're just supposed to stop evolving now? Atheists and right wing religiosos are merely opposite ends of the same spectrum. We must practice moderation in all things in life, beliefs included.
Parroting talking points does not make for interesting comments, Harry.
ReplyDeleteThe whole point of atheism is that we do NOT believe. We have no belief in any gods. And we do have evidence. And we do have research. It's not blind. It takes careful thought and reason to break free of religious dogma.
Read about Occam's Razor and go think about your conspiracy theories and hare-brained ideas elsewhere.
We haven't stopped evolving. Of course not. Nothing has.
And atheists have no beliefs. That's the point. Get it? No? Well start using your brain for more than fantasizing about aliens and nonsense.
Ho ho, Harry! People like you are why I'm a gnostic atheist!
ReplyDeleteAgnostic huh? Do you have a belief in god or not? Yes or no?
If yes, your an agnostic theist.
If no, or you answered I don't know, you are a agnostic atheist. Atheism is the lack of a belief in god.
Congratulations, you are a part of what you mock.
You can glean more about that in my deconversion story:
"First, let us clarify. Atheism means you don’t have a belief in god. On the other hand, being agnostic simply says you think god is impossible to prove or disprove, or in other words that you don’t know. Now you can be an agnostic theist… or you can be an agnostic atheist. Not knowing while also not believing is a fluffy way of saying you don’t have a belief in god (but may have one later), thus atheist (currently). The majority of atheists are agnostic.
So here’s the issue: I run across a lot of posts by claimed agnostics that being in a religion or being atheist is both equally ignorant. That’s putting it nicely.Constantly having to say they are actually atheists themselves, becomes quite a hassle—also put nicely. Now most claimed agnostics (that aren’t theists) claim to be agnostics for two reasons… first are the negative stereotypes against atheism, and second being they just don’t understand the terms. The agnostics that I’m talking about here also happen to be incredibly egotistical to boot. Here’s the funny bit, they seemed to be gnostic about their agnosticism…"
Thank you for proving my point. Rather than saying, "yes, you have a point. I don't believe in the possibility of god because... [present evidence here]", you insult me and tell me I'm fantasizing about aliens. Much like the religious people do, you reject my ideas without considering them for a second. Too bad.
ReplyDeleteCan you honestly think that in the multiple planets per star, the millions of stars per galaxy, and the billions of galaxies in the universe, that we might be the only life that has advanced as far as we have? Especially from someone that believes evolution doesn't ever stop, I would think you might be humble enough to consider that there is life outside of Earth.
I long considered myself an atheist, and I've never had a problem with that stigma. However, I've come to realize that just because we are insulted by the idea of a supreme being, does not mean we shan't give it careful consideration. With science, anything is possible. Even God.
I'm not saying that being an atheist is ignorant in itself. I'm saying the absolute unwillingness to change your views is ignorant. I almost feel like some atheists would still not believe in a god if one stood before them, much like christians disbelieve in evolution, though the proof is right in front of them.
ReplyDeleteDo I believe in god/God ? Um, depends on what you mean. Do I believe in an omnipotent creator that jacked off and a universe came out? No. However, if, as a god, you mean a being that is capable of performing feats that we think could only be possible with god-like powers, then yes. I do believe they exist, as it is a matter of evolution. It's inevitable that life elsewhere in the universe has already evolved to such a stage. However, I would imagine that these beings are passive observers and do not listen to our prayers or answer them, or protect us from good or evil.
Science on planet Earth will not stop progressing until mankind achieves god-mode. And who knows what we might do then? Perhaps, as Dr Manhattan mentions in the Watchmen, we'll go and create some life of our own on another planet. Who knows?
Based on the assumption that, with science and sufficient technology, anything is possible, I am obligated to accept the possibility that a god-like being may (and in all probability, does) exist. But as for that whole thing about God creating the universe, utter bullshit. I hope I have clarified my views. Thanks for your time.
Harry, I'd first like to state that yes, every atheist would change their views given actual proof.
ReplyDeleteEveryone.
What would amount? Yes, god would have to show himself, or be talking to us, personally (in fact, make that everybody at the same time). He would have to perform a miracle, like moving a mountain or turning the moon to blood, that would be evident for everybody (meaning everybody or anybody could verify to only to god). And finally, he would have to explain himself. To everybody. Very simple for a god.
For the record, you are an agnostic atheist. god-like is not god, we are not talking somebody akin to superman.
A god has omni-abilities. Which do not exist, will not exist, and can never exist.
Even the greek gods, they were the source of something, as in the source of lightning Zeus. It wasn't that he controlled lightning, he was the source of all lightning.
But as Neece said, this is not blind thought. I quote myself again:
"I’ve argued against countless excuses for god. I’ve found fundamental flaws against any kind of omni-ability. I’ve argued against not only the existence but the uselessness of a creator. Essentially, I’ve argued if god cannot be known in this reality then god has no basis in this reality. I’ve even argued the word classification of the word god even.
...
I have found flaws and argued against all types of gods, how much more must it take to know? I’ve argued against the whole notion, reason, and existence of god… why can I not be certain there is no god?"
We have a lot of evidence for our cause. Even Christians have evidence, very flawed evidence mind you, but evidence nonetheless.
.
And to set things straight, I am, to my knowledge, the only gnostic atheist on this site. The massive majority of atheists are agnostic atheists, just like yourself.
“yes, you have a point. I don’t believe in the possibility of god because… [present evidence here]“
ReplyDeleteThat's paradoxical. If she did present evidence, then you wouldn't have had a point.
As far as evidence goes, we are the only life that has advanced as far as we have. At least, to our knowledge. So yes, you are fantasizing about aliens as it were. We are pretty sure there is other life out there, but intelligent? We can only fantasize at the moment.
Evolution doesn't stop, that doesn't mean it gets god-like. Evolution (plus natural selection) only tries to assure reproduction. So it maximizes our chances of reproduction... I think you can get where I'm going here.
And god is not possible with science, I assume you mean becoming one. See my post below.
No, you do Not have a point. You are wrong. And I am not going to comment here with a list of the evidence that supports there being no gods because that's what this whole blog is about. Do your own research. I do not have to prove a negative to you. YOU have to prove a positive. That's the way things work.
ReplyDeleteI didn't reject your ideas out of hand. I rejected them ages ago after looking into aliens myself and finding only conspiracy theories and wishful thinking.
Personally, I think that there is a chance that there is life on other planets. But what that life might be like, and if it's intelligent in a way that we can even understand is all speculation.
I am not insulted by the idea of a god. I just think it's delusional. I prefer reason to emotional need. I don't have a god shaped hole in my head or my "soul". Science does not make everything possible. The way the universe works isn't created by science. It's simply described and observed by science. So if there is no evidence of god, there's no evidence of god. End of story.
Why do you need a god so badly, anyway?
Who are you to say that I have an unwillingness to change my view? I adjust my worldview all the time as I learn new information. Do you do the same?
ReplyDeleteYou don't know me. Why do you try to insult me by telling me what I'm thinking, when there's no way you could know?
If a god stood or floated before me, I'd check to make sure I wasn't hallucinating, then I'd require extraordinary evidence for such an extraordinary claim. Simple as that.
What is this you're talking about? You think god is a matter of evolution? That sounds pretty far-fetched. I have yet to hear a scientist talk about such mumbo jumbo.
And your assumption that anything is possible with science and sufficient technology is completely ridiculous. Time travel will never be possible. Neither will going faster than the speed of light. Just for 2 quick examples. Maybe you don't know this but science fiction and fantasy aren't real. Comics are not real.
You might consider getting some professional help. It's not normal or healthy to think such things.
Wait a sec, GMN. Are you calling me an agnostic atheist? I love your gnostic atheist label. You don't think any of us on here can fit that label except you? :P Put up your dukes! (Just kidding, you know I'm just kidding, I hope. :P )
ReplyDeleteHey hey, you can try it on for size if you want. Take it for a little test drive, just try not to scuff it up too much--it's fairly new.
ReplyDeleteI'll be on my best behavior. :P
ReplyDeleteYou have actually met Atheist that play with Ouija boards, tarot cards and chicken bones? I'm sorry, but if there's an ATHEIST (one who does NOT believe in Gods and voodoo magic) that is actually playing with these objects, I would truly question the honesty of that person being Atheist.
ReplyDeleteFor me, it is not what is written in a book that was written by MAN, translated into hundreds of versions from the original Hebrew, that make me an Atheist, but the FACT that a 'God' needs a man to speak on his behalf. PROOF of ANY entity is in the 'God' himself (or herself, whichever you believe 'God' to be). I will NOT take the word of a religious messenger to believe, or have 'faith' in something that is NOT there. I do not think, I do not believe, I KNOW that there is no Gods of ANY kind- no Zeus, Odin, Ra OR Jesus (a character based on Horus, son of the Egyptian God Osiris), just HUMANS living on a planet, living mostly on landmasses separated by large bodies of water. Everything else is not as important, only LIFE important....
The comment you were replying to was written by someone who used to contribute to HDC. So I will reply to this, as someone who doesn't know any atheists who play with tarot cards.
ReplyDeleteBut I do know atheists who believe in ghosts and even reincarnation. Atheists are no immune to supernatural beliefs. And just because you're an atheist does Not mean you're a skeptic/critical thinker.
In fact I know a lot of atheists who went through a phase from believer, to partially supernatural believer but atheist, and then to naturalist - nonbeliever in god and the supernatural.
So it does happen.
Now, about Knowing there are no gods of any sort, that's tricky. Because if there is a deist god there would be no evidence that we'd be able to observe. The universe would look exactly like it is, and we'd be none the wiser. That's why most skeptical atheists don't claim to Know, since there's no way to prove or disprove god. We simply don't believe in god, but understand we can't disprove it, But we still live our lives as if no god exists.
I do agree that Life is very important. Living this life, this is all we have. We have to make the most of it. :)