I was always under the vague impression that Hitler's hatred of the Jews was more than culturally motivated, but until recently I wasn't' aware that the catholic church supported Hitler and the Nazi party. I was never taught in school (and this was back when education meant something in this country) that there was anything religious involved in WWII.
Then again, I was never taught that Japan bombed Australia at the same time as they bombed Pearl Harbor, so I know I have a lot to make up for in my education.
My husband finds me the neatest stuff. He found me a website that I want to share with you. NoBeliefs.com has a whole page on Nazis and religion.
When you realize that the Nazis mixed government with religion and religious fervor and then look at where we're heading today in America, it makes you sit up and start to take notice.
What good has ever come from religion? Morals? No. Morals based on fear of recrimination aren't morals, they're scare tactics and ways to keep people under control. I honestly can't think of one good thing that has ever come from religion. Not a single thing. Not a single advancement, an improvement in the quality of life... nothing. It's all come from people struggling against the shackles of the church.
On the other hand, I can think of the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Dark Ages, Hitler, christians bombing Planned Parenthoods and killing doctors, on and on... and I'm not even trying very hard! What about the muslims that kill their own children for converting to christianity? Or the religious nitwits that starved that poor boy to death recently because he wouldn't say amen? Barbaric.
Basing your life on books written during the stone and iron ages by a bunch of angry, hateful old men is not really the smartest way to go. Taking those books literally is beyond ignorant, all the way to highly crazy.
That's no surprise to me. The Catholic Church has always been very strange to me. Scared the hell out of me when I was a wee child. Spooky language. When I think about it now. I might had been the most logical thinking one out of my family there. I was a skeptic back then. I remember being like "That doesn't make sense, why would this invisible man in the sky be so hateful?"
ReplyDeleteYes it doesn't surprise me one bit. The whole church thing is so segregated. One will probably never see other races in a Catholic Church or the mixing of in other church. It's very sad. But that's religion for you. Murderous, Sexist, and Racist.
I just looked at the site. Very scarey. Hopefully I'll be out of this country soon. Moving to a country that is complete seperation of church and state.
ReplyDeleteHey Colleen, that's well said, murderous, sexist, racist, misanthropic hatefest. Gah!
ReplyDeleteMay I ask what country you're looking at moving to? My husband and I are considering the same thing.
Not sure, whatever country doesn't shove Christianity in my face.
ReplyDeleteBTW Thanks Neece for commenting my blog.
ReplyDeleteI fixed my "don't offend the christians" post I was trying to be nice. But hell with it. Christianity isn’t known for being nice. It’s Murderous, Sexist, and Racist.
It’s true religions are harmful to society. Organized religion is the root of evil.
Hey Colleen :)
ReplyDeleteYou don't have many to choose from, that I've found. Norway, Switzerland, Sweden, maybe Finland? Not many countries are christian lite. :P One of us should blog about that! LOL
You're welcome for my comments. Hey, you can be nice! I'm sorry! But yeah, christianity is far from nice.
Yes, that's awesome.. that would make a great t-shirt! You're awesome! :D
Switzerland sounds nice. Yummmm, chocolate.
ReplyDeletehttp://i28.tinypic.com/14b721v.jpg
You're so funny, Colleen! LOLZ!
ReplyDeleteAnd the Pope was a Nazi. Go figure.
ReplyDeleteHey Scy, yeah, I can't believe I didn't even mention that the latest pope was in the Hitler Youth. Sigh. The corruption is never ending.
ReplyDeleteMichel Onfray in his book Atheist Manifesto (ISBN=1559708506) has two chapters dealing with Hitler's admiration for the Vatican and the Vatican's admiration for Hitler. Pius XII 's complicity in the Holocaust, long the stuff of rumor, went even further by shielding Nazis, providing them safe passage out of Europe. Other Nazis converted to Islam and entered the Gulf States as valued advisors.
ReplyDeleteIs there any question that 6 million exterminated Jews effectively removed Judaism from Europe. Pope, potentates in the Middle East, and Hitler achieved their mutual aim. Of course Israel and the US are now centers for Jewish creativity and culture.
Thanks, Bipolar. I'll have to add that book to my reading list. I hear it's very controversial.
ReplyDeleteThis reminded me I was looking at Wal-Marts books again. No Origin of Species, but a horrible book on Hitlers' army. That hopefully will get pulled off the shelf. Seeing that made me sick. :evil:
ReplyDeleteHello there. As a fellow atheist I am glad to see us have an ever growing voice on the internet and beyond. But then I see a statement like "I honestly can’t think of one good thing that has ever come from religion."
ReplyDeleteIndeed, nothing ever? Not the Pope's suggestion of a Christmas truce during WWI or the fact that hundreds of classical works from the Greek and Roman period were preserved in monasteries or the dark ages, or the many genuine attempts at sending aid to impoverished nations, or when church members help rebuild houses, or send the donation tray around to help a family that has had a bad bit of luck.
You could argue that human nature is the root of good actions and not religion (and you'd be right). But denying that religion has EVER done anything "good" puts you closer in company to the "crazy" theists you deride than you will perhaps ever know.
If you hope for a world without religion as I do, perhaps then it is time to ask yourself how it will happen. Will those who share your intolerance lead us to a peaceful conversion or a violent one?
Peace.
Colleen, try moving to an Asian nation. Been living and traveling in Asia for over 20 years and have never been asked to convert to Buddhism, Hinduism or Islam. There are a few Xians around but they are minor players in the religion game.
ReplyDeleteAlso remember, if you give up your citizenship all your assets in the USA will be subject to capital gains tax whether you sell them or not. The penalty for not thinking the USA is the greatest country in the world I guess.
I think monks invented beer... not sure if that qualifies as something good religion has produced or not.
ReplyDeleteI think monks were the first to use hops but beer itself is much older. Hops does make beer what it is today so I'd say that qualifies as a good thing! :p
ReplyDeleteThis seems to be a blatent, unfounded, anti-christian propaganda piece. The over-zealous Atheist movment is starting to seem like some sort of hate machine cult.
ReplyDeletePerhaps religion is ridiculous and religious models seem outdated as a model of looking at the word, this does not mean that it should slandered for the sake of perpetuating some sort of equally dogmatic system of beliefs.
There is lots of well documented historical instances where members of the catholic church (and often their priests) spoke out against Hitler at the cost of their lives.
Hitler was an ATHEIST who hated the church.
The Atheist Extremist movement that is becoming a constant irritation on the internet. It is not the belief structures of the different religions of the world that make them oppressive, it is the way that they are dogmatically imposed on people. Atheists could easily be accused of this type of zealotry.
Q. Is there a God?
A. We, the human race, as a collective entity, do not know the answer to this question. We probably never will. Maybe God is something so incomprehensible that while some humans feel that there definitly is some sort of greater creative influence, manipulating and setting into motion the wholly un-understandable process of exsistance, nobody has ever been able to properly explain in a concept that didn become basterdised by the disgusting power seeking nature of man.
Respect to all living man, regardless of whatever stupid model of thinking they use is far a more intelligent and scientific way of looking at the world. The ´free-thinking´ term that Atheists apply to themselves as a trait is just camaflage to try to justify their over the top anti-religous stance.
Peace out,
Tranquito
so i'm no historian but i noticed that most of the pictures of nazi's and high ranking Church officials were taken in the early 1930's mostly before '35 which if i'm remembering correctly was before Hitler started to commit crimes against humanity and starting world wars. it seems to me that most of the posters here have not noticed this little but important fact and are taking the pictures out of context of what was happening at the time. also just because some of the nazi's were christians doesn't mean that they were actually following the ideals of christianity. many supposed followers of religions twist the ideals of that religion into something that matches what they want and don't actually reflect the true nature of the religion. i think that dustin makes a great point in that the church and those who believe in any religion are capable of great good and great evil just like atheists are capable of both. it's the nature of humanity to be capable of both good and evil not just of the religious.
ReplyDeleteHope the next post is on Stalin and atheism. Just for the sake of equal time. And on that subject, though an atheist myself, I have to admit that many people were saved from Stalinist purges by religious people. And that wiping out a religion was what both he and Hitler were up to, strangely echoed in the wish for a religion-free world.
ReplyDeletemove to new zealand we are refreshingly atheist. Sure you get the odd weirdo but its more P.C to laugh at them than encourage them. Reading about America makes me sick...Im sure there must be some nice people there but all we hear about are the gay haters, the funeral picketers and the violence and hatred of anyone not fundamentalist christian. Never been there, never will go.
ReplyDeleteMonks may have done beer...I know they did champagne...and a bunch of little boys.
ReplyDeleteHey Colleen, hopefully the Hitler book will educate people about how wrong Nazism was.
ReplyDeleteSecular Siam, welcome! Yeah, the good ol' USA gets you coming and going. They do insist
that we love America the bestest of all, whether we like it or not.
Kelly, welcome! I think you're right! Monks made beer what it is today! Plus I think they
also invented cappuccino. That's definitely good stuff! Oh, and they also created
Frangelico which is hazelnut liqueur. It's nummy.
Dustin, welcome: Read the quote that you pulled from my post. I said I can't think of
anything. That is my opinion. I did not say that nothing good had ever come from religion.
I asked people to comment and help me out. You're calling me intolerant because I couldn't
think of anything? That's ridiculous.
Your examples though, are weak. The pope asking for a christmas truce? That's selfish and self serving. He didn't ask for everyone to lay down their arms and end the war. He asked them to stop fighting for his god, to worship the baby Jesus.
Hundreds of ancient texts preserved in monasteries? They weren't preserved, they were hidden. It wasn't called the Dark Ages because the sun didn't shine, it was because the catholic church hoarded all the knowledge and kept it from the masses. Plus the hundreds of texts that they hoarded doesn't compare to the thousands they burned and destroyed because they didn't agree with the church and the bible.
Genuine attempts to send aid? You have no way to know if it was genuine or not. When the church gives aid to poor countries, it's always accompanied with bibles and missionaries who indoctrinate those people with the lies of the church. One thing they preach about is no birth control, and be fruitful and multiply (beyond your food supply). That isn't noble. It's cruel and stupid.
Your last two examples I'll accept. Church members helping other folks with rebuilding a house or helping someone in trouble. Sure. It happens.
But this is what I was saying. Atheists and non religious folks do the same thing. So religious people don't own that kind of thing. See, it doesn't take religion to get people to help other people. At least with atheists its more genuine, not based on religious dogma that says you must do this or suffer eternal damnation.
So, you are wrong. I did not deny anything. I simply said I couldn't think of anything at the time. As you can see in my comment here, the monks have done some good stuff with beverages that I agree with. But your examples show you as an apologist, not an atheist. And you twisting my words does you no good. It doesn't make you right.
Sure, I'm intolerant. I despise cultivated ignorance, abuse of power, hypocrisy and lying. But you, you're dishonest. You claim to be an atheist when it's obvious you are an apologist and a hypocrite.
Tranquito: Showing photographs of events that happened isn't propaganda. Just because you parrot your hate and fear-filled propaganda from the church doesn't make it true. Try dealing with a touch of reality for once in your life.
ReplyDeleteAndre: While that may be true, it still doesn't change the party ideals of the nazis and the fact that the catholic church endorsed them because they hated the Jews. So instead of following their self appointed task of shepherding the human flock and leading them to the "image of god" lifestyle, they showed themselves as a political system by endorsing the nazis, which was based on hate and elitism, which has always been the true path of the catholic church. So the church was also sucking up to the bully, to garner favor, so that they'd be with the winner for the next thousand years. Really noble. NOT.
Plus, why didn't the church speak out against the nazis after they showed their true colors?
Billdave: I'll add the Stalin and atheism post to my list. Good suggestion, thanks.
Crusty: New Zealand is one of those places I'd love to live. But you guys don't really like immigrants, do you? Aren't you really picky on who you let in? :P Yeah, America is pretty much a polarized nation of hate lately. It's sad. There are a few of us here who still value reason and stand in the middle speaking sanely, but no on listens. :(
Feck! Champagne, you're right. Those monks were great with the beverages, huh!? Yeah, we haven't even touched on how they liked touching little boys. Oops!
Crusty
ReplyDeleteI don't want to go too far off track here, but the USA bashing seems a bit odd in response to a post about Nazis and catholics in Germany of the 30s-40s. I'm a US citizen who lives abroad and is politically correct enough to wince when I hear my home country called America (there are lots of countries in America, the US being one.)
But in defense of the US, good caring people are not in the minority there any more than they are in most of the world. We tend to love our freaks and so nut-jobs like Fred Phelps et al get a lot of coverage though they are no more representative of majority opinions than any given noxious cult in NZ, Spain, Russia, or Uruguay is representative of those countries. But "Millions of kind, reasonable, well-intentioned people of vastly different ideologies races and creeds peacefully coexist and carry on civil dialogue about politics and life" doesn't make for very sexy headlines, especially when referring to a country whose political leaders have made many blunders and done some downright WRONG stuff in recent history. If you don't want to visit the US, that's cool, but I recommend refraining from judgment of something you have never seen and never plan to see except through the eyes of sensationalist media.
Good point, Billdave, although as an American living here, it is really polarized even at the person level. You're right though, there are good people intermixed. Although not many of any of them are good drivers. But that's another post for another day! HA! :D
ReplyDeleteNeece: After WW I Germany was in a severe depression, even worse than what the US was experiencing during the '30's, so when the Nazi's took over Germany and started to turn the economy around they were hailed as saviors by many in Germany. Many people don't realize that initially the Nazi's were good for Germany and their economy. In fact they were good for all of Europe because a strong Germany is critical to a strong Europe. Also they didn't just start killing Jews and discriminating against them. Initially they were working for the betterment of the entire country and fixing the economy. I think this is what the Church saw initially and was supportive of the new regime's attempts to turn around a devastated economy. Because all of the pictures of Nazi's and high ranking Church officials were taken while the Nazi's were turning around the economy and actually helping a country leads me to believe that the Church was supportive because the the regime was doing good rather than evil at that time. As soon as the evil aspect of the Nazi regime came to the forefront the support and the pictures with the Church stop. In order to understand and interpret history correctly it is necessary to look at it within its context and not just look at the entirety of it. People are not perfect by nature and as such they make mistakes. It is irrational to expect even a religious institution to not have made any mistakes ever. If you look after the Church's activities after WW II started it is clear that they attempted to help as many people escape the Nazi discrimination.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the perspective and context, Andre. You're right, you can't take things out of context when looking at history. You're right, people and organizations make mistakes. No one is expected to be held to the standard of perfection.
ReplyDeleteDid the church ever publicly denounce Hitler and his actions? Is there evidence that the church helped people indiscriminately? I mean, is there evidence that they helped Jews too? That would be cool if they did that.
Thanks again! :)
So I (an atheist) claimed that religious folks have done some good deeds and this this somehow makes me a lying apologist hypocrite? Care to explain this chain of thought?
ReplyDeleteI have been an outspoken atheist for 26 years and I think all religions are a waste of time just as you obviously do but I also believe that "it is not so much what you believe in that matters, as the way in which you believe it and proceed to translate that belief into action." (quote by Lin Yutang)
Peace
re. the claim by tranquito that Hitler was an atheist-- http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm This article gives some good quotes by him from Mein kampf where he claims Christian belief. certainly I understand why Christians reject and revile him, claim that his Christianity is not true Christianity, but please don't try to give him to us; he was not and never claimed to be an atheist. i do not claim that his Christianity is an indictment of Christians, since the many caring, loving and intelligent Christians i know find the man and his ideas as odious as any of my atheist friends, but trying to make him an atheist posthumously is a slander against us liberal humanist atheists who reject him as thoroughly as any humane and sensible Christian. The man's ideology and actions were wicked beyond the pale and representative of no group or individual that does not claim him or embrace his doctrine of hatred.
ReplyDeleteNeece: I don't think that the Church ever publicly came out and denounced the Nazi regime but there were reasons for that. The main one that I think of is that the Church risked being completely destroyed itself because of its lack of military power. It seems like they were just saving their own skins but then again how many Jewish people could they have saved if they themselves were destroyed. http://www.michaeljournal.org/piusXII.htm is a website that I hope you find time to read. (there are many more like this one but I randomly selected this one as the one I'd tell you about) It shows that the Jewish people recognized that the pope and the Catholic Church did whatever they could in order to help the Jewish people during the Holocaust. I think that the acknowledgments that the Jewish people give to Pius XII speak for themselves better than I ever could.
ReplyDeleteScience, save us! Hand me a god as it's defecating matter into the Universe and I might be more inclined to listen to a mere mortal telling me what is in "His Plan". We have such stimulating and intellectual conversations, for a bunch of upright monkeys. As one of those deep thinking monkeys, I've decided to only respect the privacy of those churches which respect the privacy of me and MY religion (Buddhism, Hinduism, Church of FSM, etc.). As long as people believe I will burn for committing the eternal sin of rational thought, I will continue to think of their blind faith and petty, separatist denominations as shallow and shortsighted. Pick up a 6th grade science book and find out how the lives of everything (not just God's Children) are intertwined and interdependent.
ReplyDeleteTo the Christians, I have some bad news...god just informed me via tin-foil helmet that it has decided to follow Majority Rules. Since you are so outnumbered, there is one God, Allah, and Mohamed is his Prophet...Have a Nice Day!
PS: ET's are more probable than your white God. Math Rules!
'my husband finds me the neatest things'.... perhaps he can help you find your honey bees
ReplyDeleteI have to disagree with you on one thing. Let me quote George Carlin for a bit: "The only good things religion has brought forth are music and architecture."
ReplyDeleteCan't really disagree with that. And even though contemporary christian music is utter shit, I still thoroughly enjoy listening to Ave Maria for example, despite my being a godless fuck.
Japan did not attack Australia until Feb. 1942.
ReplyDeleteCrusty,
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, that's all like the same five crazy people. I guess it depends on where you live in America, the middle is very religious, the coasts very liberal. Which can be just as bad when political correctness means being afraid of offending everyone around you. What does this have to do with the article? I have no idea. I didn't even read it! Looked at the pictures for a second. Something about Hitler. Anymore the comments are my favorite part. So in conclusion your country has some damn fine hills.
I sometimes wish Atheists (aka Reasoners) were more organized with a clear set of interests and common goals. Some cause to rally around and secure. Unfortunately, I think many of us share a similar attitude of "Leave me the fuck alone, please, and I'll leave you alone, too." Sounds like jesus christ, but the peaceful one, not the oppressive war raging one. McCain and Obama are both puppets in their own special way, but with 8 (and you BET it will be 8,) more years of NeoCon nwo agenda behind the wheel, i see scary times. But who needs rights to be Happy? Sheep look happy enough.
ReplyDeleteBTY check out the latest attack on blogging rights in this bill in the Senate
http://www.stumbleupon.com/url/techfreep.com/senate-bill-could-restrict-political-commentary.htm
Take it from me ignorance is bliss, so that is why followers of religions and sheep alike are pretty content. That is not to say that the ignorance inspired by following mythical deities like myself can not be used for good, they certainly can through humanitarian and cultural feats. But just like any other human hierarchical structure it can be used by those in power, especially when keeping the lower classes ignorant and scared, for their own gains. Not to mention that using the shield of heresy on top of treason for those who try to think for themselves and ask questions. So the problem as usual is the propensity for humans to abuse power as much as use it responsibly. Basically the way to alleviate some of this is to get rid of as many hierarchies as possible simply to reduce the confusing number of overseers and cash/power skimmers. So not just to the papacy but to all those peddlers of so-called salvation and blind faith(not the band Clapton is the closest thing to god in the modern world) just stop and maybe we can have one less reason to kill each other. I mean really we all look funny enough for several more centuries of global conflict anyway.
ReplyDeleteThis is to our anti-religion buddies: It seems to me that religion can be aptly compared to music. They can be compared inasmuch as there have been occurances of good and bad in both categories. When I listen to music, I listen to the good stuff! Now don't give me that "de gustibus" baloney: There's a big objective difference between the best of Mozart and some of the cacophony you hear blared about. Religion too. It can be magnificet. Theresa of Avila, St Francis, and more important, many unknowns that you can notice if you watch for them with an open mind. Of course I'm revolted by so much done in Jesus' name, and Mohammed's. But that's the crap religion. But I for one, have listened to enough of the great stuff to never dream of throwing the baby out with the bath. Thanks, and I'm sure you open minded people will overlook my mixed metaphors. Dennis
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty curious as to why atheism has been so attached to liberalism of late. I'm a pretty hardcore atheist, and I've agreed with almost everything I've heard Sarah Palin say. Granted, I agree because of reasons other than god or religion, but I still agree. Since when did atheism mean "If you don't think like we do, you're wrong or a puppet"?
ReplyDeleteLast time I checked, thinking for yourself was what made you NOT a puppet. Am I being a good atheist?
As for the post, I'm sorry, but it doesn't seem very well thought out or researched. America supported Hitler in the early thirties too, and if I remember right, he was named Time's most influential person of the year at one point. This post just seems like a haymaker. It won't influence anyone who's not already behind the message. It's essentially the same as the church saying "Mao killed and oppressed thousands of people! Atheists are evil!"
Like classical music? Yes, in that it is classist, antiquated, and boring. No in that classical music tends to have a consistency and logic behind it, is art, is empty of ideas, doesn't try to dictate tribal morality onto modern people, and the occasional insanity of the people who created classical music tends to make the music more exciting rather than to transmit the craziness to others. Oh yeah, and when a work of art is dedicated to God, it doesn't matter that God doesn't exist. When an ideology and a social agenda (religion) are dedicated to God, it removes the rational element that most modern atheists would like to see driving social policy.
ReplyDeleteAnd why is atheism associated with liberalism these days? Largely because American conservatism was hijacked by the religious right and began embracing a theological agenda that is all about gay people, fetuses, evolution, etc rather than the older, more libertarian (and therefore not atheist averse) agenda of small govt and personal liberty. I'm a big-govt, Roosevelt liberal myself, but can respect the libertarian point of view (though i don't agree with it). the theist conservatives have largely taken over the republican party, either in the sincere way of Southern Baptists or the cynical way of Jack Abramoff et al who have no beliefs but pander and get in bed with folks like Ralph Reed.
Well, I can definitely agree that the religious have a vast majority in right-wing politics, and I could probably be more accurately classified as a very right-leaning libertarian. I've been discounted many times in my political views because of my atheism of all things, even after agreeing with every political statement the other person made, but that doesn't make the other side more appealing or the person I'm speaking with wrong about the politics, it just makes them a bit more short-minded in my own opinion.
ReplyDeleteThe problem I'm seeing is that it's wrong for me on both sides to have the opinions I have. For example, I'm pro-life, not because of anything religious, but because as an atheist I see life as the only thing we get. Taking away someone else's right to live, whether or not they're inside your body, is utterly horrible. Obviously, I'm taking into account safety for the mother and all that, but when it comes down to a woman who doesn't want a child, there are a myriad of solutions that would be better than killing it.
That makes the liberal atheists angry at me because I don't suscribe to their political view (while they may respect my opinion, I won't be gaining any favor from them), and the political right angry at me because I'm saying what I say without adding in anything about god (while they may respect the fact that I still agree with them in some moral sense, they'll still see fit to keep their distance from the evil atheist, because who knows when I'll summon up my devil army?).
It honestly doesn't surprise me that so many people blindly follow these huge groups. It's much easier to morph your own beliefs into that of the group than be shunned by everyone.
If you don't believe in the soul, then what makes the little womb frogs "someone"?
ReplyDeleteA lifetime of potential.
ReplyDeleteI totally believe in freedom of choice, it just starts a little earlier, like... before the woman decides to get knocked up. After the choice is made, the consequences show up.
I'd rather not get into that discussion though, we'll get nowhere.
"When you realize that the Nazis mixed government with religion and religious fervor and then look at where we’re heading today in America, it makes you sit up and start to take notice."
ReplyDeleteI don't think that comparing the current US government with the nazis is really all that helpful or accurate.
Read up on the holocaust and you will see that there really is no comparison. This box is too small to really even start to get into the attrocities carried out against the jews, gypsies, slavs, homosexuals & communists by the germans, ukrainians, latvians etc during wwII. I don't just mean the military either, 'normal' people turning against their jewish neighbours with shocking savagery & greed.
How about the SS officer who approached a woman holding an 18 month old child in the Lojdz ghetto and asked if the child wanted a sweet. When the child opened her mouth the soldier stuck his luger in there and pulled the trigger. One incident amongst 9 million murders that took place.
How about the victims of the 9th fort massacre in latvia still writhing underneath the dirt and lime used to bury them for three days? These men, women & children stripped naked beaten, piled into a pit and shot by their fellow townsfolk.
I think your using of this comparison to highlight your hatred of the Bush administration trivialises the most heinous crime ever commited by humans against humans and you should have thought it through little more.
the romans put vineyards everywhere the conquered, now this isn't just cool from the lets drink wine stand point, but also because the wine was used to decontaminate the water supply. and even before Catholicism the romans were equally fervent about their own religions, requiring some homage to be paid (at least once) to the roman gods. While still oppressive, the roman government still expanded western thought and society further than anyone else.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Hitler was bad, he used religion to justify murder but Japan didn't bomb Australia until 1942; the attack on Pearl Harbour was in 1941.
ReplyDeleteWe secularists do not single out Christians. We oppose all the religions that try to put their doctrine into our public science classes, try to interfere with women's right to choose, try to drive national politics with their religious agenda, and knock on our doors to try to coerce us into believing as they do.
ReplyDeleteApologies for the last post, I just realized that while there is mention of "Christian Bashing" in one post here, the conversation I was responding to was at a different site. I wasn't trying to stir the pot, just an honest mistake.
ReplyDeleteTry reading Hitler's Pope by John Cornwell. He started off with the plan of writing a positive book about Pius XII. His research led him somewhere else. The Vatican went for the jugular after he published.
ReplyDeleteAll religion can be used or abused.
ReplyDeleteTake Israel,the indigenous Palestinians are subject to ethnic cleansing,apartheid and blockades purely because they are not the right religion.
Sorry to be pedantic but the Church never really supported Hitler as such. There was the Concordat with the Pope which is as close as it came. Even so, when Hitler's actions became more extremeist the Pope did send Hitler a letter, 'With Burning Concern' which was completly ignored. Really the Church only went along with Hitler and the NSDAP through lack of choice but did actually stand up to Nazi policy on a few occasions and were fairly successful. However, this was only when the policies affected the church itself. Even so, numerous priests were put in camps for not supporting the Nazi Regime. The only reason why Hitler did not come down as hard on the Church as he could have done was to try and keep people complacent. He was very concerned about his public image and so destroying the Church would have done him no good. In actualy fact, very few people in Germany at the time supported the regime and the majority were apathetic and willing to give up liberties so as not to be dragged off to a camp.
ReplyDeleteI read through this whole discussion and I am appalled of what defines a "rational, free-thinking" person. I see an increasing number of FASCIST atheists, atheists being angry at agnostics for not completely renouncing God, atheists being angry at ALL christians because some of them are missionary-bastards, but the atheists are missionarys too. So many atheists spread their message as "the one TRUTH", and I resent that. Fact is that proof isn't the same as highly likely, and that is the best science can do.
ReplyDeleteI have some to the conclusion that whether you are christian, or atheist, buddhist or agnostic, black or white, you are capable of doing good and doing evil. I see potential atheist crusades soon, because of the intolerance among the masses.
Everyone have their own morals, and those morals are a product of society. Freud tells us that our morals are the stuff that keeps us from blindly following our primal drives. If you grow up in a religious society it's highly likely that you become a religious person because your learned morals fit the religion. If then your morals fit the religion on some parts, you just pick those, hence it is possible for a christian to go to war because if he thinks it's okay, the word of Jesus isn't enough anyway.
Atheists like myself are subject to the exact same, only that we don't use a religion as an excuse for our beliefs.
Rationality and reason are not copyrighted by atheists, but indoctrination ruins them, whether it is atheist or religios.
Paul wrote:
ReplyDelete"All religion can be used or abused.
Take Israel,the indigenous Palestinians are subject to ethnic cleansing,apartheid and blockades purely because they are not the right religion."
Wrong, Paul! In the 1900 years prior to 1948, it was the Muslims and Christians who threatened Jews with "conversion or death." Sorry, but I don't pity the poor Palestinians at all. They're getting what they deserve. They chose Hamas, a terrorist organization, as their leaders. They shoot rockets into Israel almost daily. They deserve no rights because THEY are the aggressors, not Israel.
600 Palestinians killed this year ,men,women and children against 7 Israelis,nuff said.
ReplyDeleteIsrael is based on racism and they cannot help themselves.
So the Pope wasn't in the Hitler Youth because he supported Hitler. It was required of everyone in Germany at that time. He never showed enthusiastic allegiance. And he entered the seminary almost immediately after being released from military service.
ReplyDeleteI'm not a Christian. I'm just saying the whole Hitler Youth thing isn't as big as some people make it.
I've always been a nonreligious person, however not arrogant enough in my knowledge of the universe to assume the title of atheist. I find religion fascinating and enjoy studying it although I am not an active participant. Although religion has been responsible for numerous atrocities, I must disagree with your statement "I honestly can’t think of one good thing that has ever come from religion." You cited the Dark Ages as a fault of Christianity, yet for all their faults they were responsible for preserving many things that might have otherwise been destroyed following the the fall of the Roman empire. I certainly admire many of these European countries you speak of for their religious tolerance, but I will not be moving to any place that wants to take 40% or more of my hard-earned income to mobilize some state agenda that could be just as oppressive as any religious doctrine.
ReplyDeleteThe sad truth that everyone seems to ignore is that every disgusting act that history has ever witnessed was perpetrated by people. Not religion. Not the bible, Koran or any other book. People are the failures. People who were looking for an outlet for the fears and/or frustrations that come with being alive in a hard world. Or men simple seeking a vehicle to further their own agendas. Religion, like the gun or sword, is incapable of anything by itself and needs a human will to affect anything. Remove religion, and people will simply fill the void with something else. Nothing in this world that is the result of a 'religious cause' is without some human being who believes that they are benefiting the world in some way. Keep that in mind when laying the blame on religion.
ReplyDeletePlease be theologically correct in your epistemics, my dear parapious brethren. The opposite of Faith is not Doubt. It is Certainty. To claim Certainty in relation to one's knowledge of God is blasphemy. Be humble, my fine, fluffy sheep. You know not the economies of your Shepard. Have you directly bleated with Him recently, or do you rely on the artifices of your local liturgy stand. It is better to live one's life as best one can as if there were no god, than to be a pretender and seek the ways of the rapture junkies. Take your prescriptions, oh thou mistaken of mind. Repent, ye who speak in the name of the unnamed one. Thy perjury will be dealt with in the flags of time. The sacred petard will hoist thee truly.
ReplyDeleteDear ExtractorOfQuintessence,
ReplyDeleteshut the hell up.
Sorry, Jesse. I'm an ex-Catholic and I'm just throwing up.
ReplyDeleteThere are two discussions here that get mixed up a lot. one is about what the church does and is socially (Flawed, capable of good and bad, no better or worse than most centuries-old bureaucracies when it is all balanced out) and what it is epistemologically ; a system of myths that contain stories, laws, and prophecies out of which some people construct meaningful belief, but which do not hold up to rational and scientific scrutiny. It is hard for many of us atheists to deal with criteria for truth that do not include the scientific and rational, hard for many religious people to admit to exactly how ridiculous religion is by those criteria.
ReplyDeleteAs a worldly entity that was nominally dedicated to the humanistic and peaceful Jesus (which the 20th century catholic church largely was) its relationship with the NAZIs was a shameful episode, one where political expediency was prioritized over a moral vision. Christians loathe Nazis as much as most folks, the church did not use good judgement in their relationship to a clearly loathsome regime. the conversation here seems to have degenerated from History to personal opinion about one another's beliefs.
billdave,
ReplyDeleteWell said.
I'll leave aside the distinct possibility that this particular page was in fact designed to solicit personal opinion about one another's beliefs (and not simply Historical reflection), and take your point, billdave. I'll also admit that I'm a neophyte blogger and had just finished reading some particularly disturbing Palin-alia prior to stumbling upon this one, and that my comments were indeed a tad degenerate.
ReplyDeleteHowever, in keeping with some of the prior themes of discussion, I would want to contest the implicit thought that polemics should be avoided in matters such as these. Besides their entertainment value (and surely, if we're honest, that is one of the primary reasons most of us are here), there is a legitimate place for extreme perspective. We might recall Mandela here.
The political expediency that infected the Vatican in WWII might have had something to do with "extreme" perspectives within the church being silenced. We could speak about Pope Benedict on this point as well. The human institution of the Catholic Church could be let off the hook as simply a centuries old bureaucracy, except that it nonetheless portends to supernatural insight and has a very definite impact on the lives of many millions. I don't want to sound conspiratorial here, but the Papacy isn't simply your run of the mill historical hold-over...
It wasn't the tame, rational arguments against religion that most affected me when I was a happily church-going christian. It was the polemics, nagging in my head as if the devil (the angel of adversity, I think it was, originally) himself were there. They forced me to think, rather than subsume the general discourse into the category of Late Modern semantic gamesmanship.
Such a scenario may not be applicable for everyone, but if conversion to a more enlightened worldview is the objective, then there ought to be an understanding of the place for polemics in the mix. Unfortunately, the matter of conversion sticks with me as a residue of my earlier messianic commitments. So I hasten to add that I'm not neccesarily looking to change anyone's mind for them. Rather, I'm looking to clarify my own, and appreciate pretty much any thoughts thrown my way. But this isn't about me, of course, so please just go on as you were...
If you want to persuade Christians and Catholics in particular to face the crucial role played by their churches in the Nazi era, then I urge you to become familiar with my http://CatholicArrogance.Org/RCscandal . As a one time Catholic priest, who actually grew up in the shadow of the papacy of Pius XII, I am ashamed of the contributions made by so-called "Christians" and have been doing my best to make Christians and non-Christians alike aware enough of these criminal behaviors to do something about them, including defending gays from persecution and injustice, instead of PROMOTING it.
ReplyDeleteBy the way my http://CatholicArrogance.Org/ site (also known as http://JesusWouldBeFurious.Org/) is IMHO the most effective expose of the faults of Roman Catholicism, because as a former priest I know the church's problems better than most critics do.
ReplyDeletehttp://stefanolaico.multiply.com/photos/album/1/Alemanha_nazista
ReplyDeletemore photos
Stefano! These are awesome! Thank you for sharing these. They're very damning. I really appreciate you sharing them.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.vaticanbankclaims.com/5AC.pdf
ReplyDeletehttp://www.vaticanbankclaims.com/faqs.html
http://stefanolaico.multiply.com/photos/album/27/Croacia_Ustasha
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/jul/21/catholicism.religion
Catholics and collusion in genocide. The Vatican is still thwarting trials of Rwandan clerics. It's inexcusable.
http://www.priestsofdarkness.com/rwanda.html
Rwandan Genocidal Clergy
FLORENCE, Italy — In this city bursting with beauty, one undistinguished church stands out. Neither very old nor very celebrated, the only reason for its prominence is its deputy priest, a suspect in one of the century's biggest non-war bloodbaths.
your email?
ReplyDeleteThank you again, Stefano. I think this deserves a post instead of just comments.
ReplyDeletemy email is heavingdeadcats@gmail.com
ReplyDeleteI became an atheist when I was a teenager and it was liberating.
ReplyDeleteNo more feeling guilty for just about everything.
Your morals become stronger too because you do not have a crutch to lean on only your own ethics.
I add you!!!
ReplyDeletemy mail is steve.daniele@gmail.com
put the photos of my album in your blog!!
ReplyDeleteI would very much like to do that. But the captions are not in English so I am not sure what they say. Are they in Portuguese?
ReplyDeleteWell said, Paul. Thank you very much for commenting. :)
ReplyDeleteI add you in google talk!
ReplyDeletesave the photos in your PC!!!
ReplyDeleteThank you Stefano, for this excellent information. No thanks to the Catholic Church, their Rwandan priest was finally brought to justice in 2006, a life sentence, the harshest penalty available :http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16189347/.
ReplyDeleteSee!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.vaticanbankclaims.com/5AC.pdf
http://www.vaticanbankclaims.com/faqs.html
I saved the photos. And I would like to do a new post with them very soon. Thanks for all the links, Stefano. :)
ReplyDeletehttp://www.reformation.org/holocaus.html
ReplyDeleteThe sensational account of the most horrifying religious massacre of the 20th century
By Avro Manhattan
Avro Manhattan (1914-1990)
About the Author:
Avro Manhattan was the world's foremost authority on Roman Catholicism in politics. A resident of London, during WW II he operated a radio station called "Radio Freedom" broadcasting to occupied Europe. He was the author of over 20 books including the best-seller The Vatican in World Politics, twice Book-of-the-Month and going through 57 editions. He was a Great Briton who risked his life daily to expose some of the darkest secrets of the Papacy. His books were #1 on the Forbidden Index for the past 50 years!!
The Vatican's Holocaust - Revealed at Last!
A sensational account of the most horrifying religious massacre of the 20th century. Startling revelations of forced conversions, mass murder of non-Catholics, Catholic extermination camps, disclosures of Catholic clergy as commanders of concentration camps; documented with names, dates, places, pictures and eyewitness testimony.
Stefano, As you say,
ReplyDelete"Avro Manhattan was the world’s foremost authority on Roman Catholicism in politics." Your link goes to his book and of course is very lengthy. I've created a summary of the high points on my http://CatholicArrogance.Org/CroatianHolocaust.html
page.
An author friend of mine has been trying in vain to find actual proof that Avra died as is claimed in 1990. He was working on a book about the murder of the liberal pope John Paul the First, who died under extremely suspicious circumstances just 33 days into his term at age 65. See my page about this at http://CatholicArrogance.Org/murderedpope.html .
Do you realize there was at least one Jewish American philanthropist's financial legacy that contributed funds to eugenic research that was directly related to the Nazis' claim of racial superiority?
ReplyDeleteUsing your illogic, would that discredit all Jews or Judaism?
Of course not.
To stereotype is repugnant.
Although I am not a Christian, I would never assume Catholics support Nazism.
That said, and as a scholar of World War II, I share your disgust with the Catholic Church’s complicity in The Holocaust; however, there were many, many Catholics in Germany who saved Jews.
And there were Jews who were complicit in helping the Nazis exterminate other Jews.
Your simplistic post reveals your ignorance of history. I suggest you read a bit more about World War II. You will find out that the Catholic Church was not the only religious denomination nor religion to be tarnished by its association with Hitler.
Did you know there was an SS unit that was Muslim? Are you aware of Islamic support of Hitler? Do you know anything about the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem?
Probably not, as your ignorance is quite apparent. That is a pity, because ignorance is a danger to humanity as well.
Just so your anti-Catholic view is put in perspective, you should know that one of my college professors was a Jew saved by a Catholic family.
So, as you condemn an entire religious denomination, you might want to do a little research and find out how many Catholics saved Jews, while acknowledging the church's complicity that cannot be ignored.
Making generalizations is easy. Condemning is easy.
Actually gaining knowledge is difficult, but perhaps if my college professor, a survivor were stil alive, he could tell you how he felt about the courageous, God-loving Catholics that kept him from the ovens.
As for moving to another country, why don't you try one of the 57-member nations of the Organization of The Islamic Conference?
ReplyDeleteThey surely won't shove Christianity down your throat.
Oh, no. Take Iran for instance. They will kill you because you don't believe in God.
Last time I checked in America, I fail to see where Christians are shoving Christianity down non-Christians' throats. Such a statement reveals your obsession with your own paranoia.
See, I'm not a Christian, but married to very devout Christian who does what most Christians do: practice their faith.
Your hatred is repugnant and displays paranoia. Tell me, how are Christians shoving their beliefs down your throat? Because they have Christian magazines and newspapers? Don't read them. Because they have Christian radio and TV stations? Don't listen and/watch them.
It's simple. Ignore them.
But if you really believe in the big, bad wolf, and really want to leave our free country that allows us to be atheists or agnostics or Christians, or in my case, a Bahá’Ã, then go to one of the OIC countries. I'm sure they will welcome you to the gallows with open arms.
You and the other posters here who have displayed such prejudice, generalizations and mockery of Christians are repugnant.
You, who claim victimization at the hands of Christians, are discriminatory victimizers.
You cry about Christians "shoving" their religion down your throat while you resort to prejudice that is just as despicable as racism.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Hatred is sickening. Stereotypes are sickening. Discrimination is sickening. Yet you and the other posters here are poster childs for all of that.
Do you feel better now that you've run the gamut of ad hominem attacks on me? I'm not going to defend my post, my position or anything else in regards to your hateful rant. You apparently didn't even read it very closely, because you attacked me with strong and vicious language that had very little to do with what I said. Typical logical fallacies.
ReplyDeleteTo stereotype is repugnant, you say. And yet you claim to know what I was thinking and my motivations for what I wrote. Hmm... how interesting. Since you seem to have missed the whole point of the post. Strong language, though. Oh, how mighty you must be.
You said my ignorance is quite apparent. An ad hominem attack. And I say your impotent anger is very telling.
You assumed I'm anti-catholic. In fact, you're wrong again. I'm anti-religion.
You brought up a personal anecdote to try to strengthen your case, sort of an argument from authority.
Weak. All weak and feeble. All you did was show yourself to be an enormous, pontificating buffoon, nothing more. Sure, you can throw shit at me, but at the end of the day, you're still a hateful, angry boor writing scathing attacks on random blogs.
You could have written a comment that was intelligent, informative and even disagreed with what I was saying. We could have even learned from each other, in some distant backwards universe. No, instead you took the low road of insult and attack, throwing your shit. Why? Do you secretly fear your beliefs are wrong? Maybe that's it. I don't claim to know what's in your hateful mind.
Now... let's move on. It seems you didn't spit out enough vitriol in one comment, you had to follow up with more.
Last time I checked in America, christians are trying to get creationism taught in schools as science, the right to choose is on the table again because of christians wanting to push their morals onto what women can do with their own bodies, and states are fighting to keep prayers and god out of their governments and soldiers in the military are forced to attend christian prayers. That's just the tip of the iceberg.
ReplyDeleteI don't care what you are. I don't care if you're a wiccan nordic priestess practicing voodoo. It's your right to do so. But I have freedom of religion and freedom FROM religion too. That's my right.
You dare call my hatred repugnant when you spew forth vitriol so wantonly? Hypocrisy, thy name is glenn franco simmons.
Taste your own medicine. You don't like what my simple blog has to say? Take your poison tongue elsewhere. Don't read it.
You speak of prejudice, generalizations and mockery, mr. hypocrite. Your vituperations are tiresome. And how does stating my opinion make me a victimizer? Your arguments are meaningless and fallacious.
Hatred IS sickening. You are gagging on your own bitter bile. You are a bigot of the highest order. You are dismissed.
Of course there are Catholics who are good people but they are people who have been fooled. They are the blind sheep that fuel an evil machine. Catholicism throughout history has committed atrocity after atrocity, wronged the human race on a million levels. To ignore this or plead that there are common people who are kind and generous and even heroic who are Catholic and therefore they excuse it is to perpetuate the greatest lie that has ever been told; that there is a god. Even the bible will tell you that in order to sell a lie you must mix it up with truth and goodness. THAT is how the catholic church has gotten by with what it has.
ReplyDeleteDiscrimination is sickening. As a lesbian I know this firsthand. Who passed prop 8? Religious people. They were just doing what they do. Practicing their faith.
ReplyDeleteExactly, Krista! Blind sheep that fuel an evil machine! What an excellent way to say it.
ReplyDeleteAlso, just because a few followers are good and kind doesn't make the organization good and kind. Those people would most likely be good without the church.
Exactly. It's disgusting the amount of hate and bigotry is perpetrated against fellow humans in the name of religious dogma. Thanks for your comments, Krista.
ReplyDeleteHi Ray, thanks for a very detailed comment. It's much appreciated. :)
ReplyDeleteWWW.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm says all.
ReplyDeleteAs do many well researched books on the nazi era and the eliminationist campaign of the nazis, supported by the church
Because it hated the jews because they wouldnt convert. The same re the inquisition where people were burned at the stake etc etc for daring to challenge the church.
the church is an absolutist top down organization, my way or the highway. As were the nazis.
Hitler has yet to be formally excommunicated dead or alive.
You are nothign but a sly obfuscator for the church that has been the curse of western history since its beginning.
Any suprise the church is dead in W. europe by the church's own admission, eg EWTN
Dieing in Latin america, dead in canada etc.
while it also pays out billions all over the world re the endless hidden molestation of children
whats this got to do with the catholic church?
ReplyDeletetjhe churches morals include mass murder. Inquisition, the thousand year dark ages, the christian (catholic) crusades against the Muslims in which tens of millions were murdered. NO wonder some of those people hate us
ReplyDeleteReminds me of the paper I found on the web about the church claiming it saved lots of Jews.
Certainly there were good priests who even became pope, eg Roncalli and the Polish pope
But fot the most part by commission or omission the church has been the curse of western history.
the paper says that it is true because the church says it is true.
Like all those murdererrs we have locked up in prisons - who of course are "innocent, your honor".
the lessons of ones life the ones most frimly implanted.
ReplyDeleteremind me of the head of Focus on the family - a close to hate group - who said
Give me a child by the age of 7 and I'll make a christian of him for life"
OF course, you can make anything of a person if you work on his mind when he is too young to understand and doesnt have the gumption to say BS
those countries for the most part have thrown off the yoke of the catholic church btw.
ReplyDeleteREligion brings together an agenda. It gets a shot every single week at filling peoples heads. Christianity works on the pincer principle
ReplyDeleteIf you do what we tell you to do, death is not death
If you dont do what you are told to do, you will burn in hell (what is considered the worst way to die - burning btw).
the sooner we get rid of religion the better. I'm not christian but there was this Jewish rabbi long long ago who said it all in one sentence
Love thy neighbor as thyself.
All the rest is fluff at bestt, and the worst attrocities commiteed in the name of god on the other hand.
faith is nothing but believing in something you have been told that is often preposterous.
ReplyDeleteBlasphemy is simply another way of terrorizing the faithful that if they dont do as they are told, they will burn eternally in hell, another religious creation.
Take it a step further and you get Islam,w hich if you are Islamic and leave the faith, they will murder you.
We have the abolute right to be free of your beliefs.
I read all the posts and so far, I must say, everyone misses factual reality. Regardless of the comments or the 'facts' of history, the argument (or if you prefer, discussion) misses one point. Religion is a myth.
ReplyDeleteBefore I get so much nasty feedback my comment clogs this site, I am not attempting to sway anyone. In fact, I am too old to care. However, that said, consider a fact that will need no proving once an intelligent, rational mind that does not fear admitting accuracies gains notice of it: Religion is a product of a longstanding practice of brainwashing. Coercive persuasion as we psychologists call it, provided children in their formative years, is the root of all religion. Thus religion is based geographically more than anything else. Those who grow up having never had an introduction to religion as children, are 74% less likely to adopt a religion. Those who do are almost always found to be socially fearful. Religion has continued because parent provide children with fears. Nothing else.
Why is it a myth? If you can think, here is as close to actual proof you can get.
1. Every society on the face of the earth has formed a God. Every one. Not one has not.
2. There have been over 400 Gods in recorded history. Each different, and this does not count that bronze age carpenter who was unusually successful.
3. since there were over 400 Gods, each different, each created by a society much like any modern society, how in the world can any person be so simplistically foolish as to think that the one they believe in just happens to be the real one, and in addition, given the above, how can anyone find reason to believe that a God even exists since no God, not one, not ever, has been seen. They are all invisible.
The only logic one can derive from this is: There is no God. Societies invent them to help with fears and so ignorant people who lack the interest in learning facts can have something easy to consider real and believe in just as everyone will do so they can have a social bond. Here truth is not important, only 'belief. It needs no proof.
Or, perhaps, that there are possibly billions of different Gods and each will be recognized only by one persuasive human who delivers the message of this new invisible God to everyone else. L. Ron Hubbard did just that. He wrote that beginning a new religion was the best way to get rich easy, then he wrote Dianetics and invented Scientology. His purported God was from 5 billion years ago and he knew him by first name. Pretty good, eh? He even got rich and developed a wad of fools to follow him. What a load of crap, huh? To anyone but a Scientologist anyway. Christians call them crazy, Muslims want to kill both, and religion, once again, proves that only those blind to reason and logic need apply.
The essential problem with your logic is that the Pope isnt just some Catholic guy, he is the universally acknowledged leader and spokesperson for the church. When we are critical of the churches position during the build-up to the Holocaust, we aren't being critical of every single Catholic person's behavior, but rather of the institution's behavior.
ReplyDeleteJudaism does not have a single leader, so the fact that some guy who happened to be Jewish did something that happened to be supportive of Naziism doesnt, indeed, implicate all Jews. But it is quite fair and true to say that what the Pope does and says indicates the opinions and direction of the Catholic Church at any given time. While papal infallibility does not apply to statements made outside of the "ex cathedra" category, if the pope shows up in his pointy hat and shakes hands with Hitler for a photo op, that says something real and definite about the church on that day in that context. And, to stir the pot a bit more, when Mother Teresa did photo ops with dictators and brutal villains around the world, it did not speak for the entire Catholic church, but the fact that woman who would sell her de facto endorsement to any despot with a checkbook and a need for a whitewash is being considered for beatification does speak volumes about the church.