Showing posts with label gods. Show all posts
Showing posts with label gods. Show all posts

Agnostic Atheist Skeptic

Recently, I wrote about Richard Dawkin's handy Spectrum of Theistic Probability. I found it useful to help me figure out what kind of atheist I am. (I rate myself as a 6.9 De Facto Atheist). I also find it helpful to understand where someone is coming from if they call themselves a 1 or a 7, because that means they "know" the unknowable and unprovable.

But last night I was reading over my notes of the first half  of The Believing Brain by Michael Shermer, before going to the second half. I wanted to share one bit with you from page 176:
Of course, no one is agnostic behaviorally. When we act in the world, we act as if there is a God or as if there is no God, so by default we must make a choice, if not intellectually then at least behaviorally. To this extent, I assume that there is no God and I live my life accordingly, which makes me an atheist. In other words, agnosticism is an intellectual position, a statement about the existence or nonexistence of the deity and our ability to know it with certainty, whereas atheism is a behavioral position, a statement about what assumptions we make  about the world in which we behave.

... I prefer [Skeptic] as my label. A skeptic simply does not believe a knowledge claim until sufficient evidence is presented to reject the null hypothesis (that a knowledge claim is not true until proven otherwise). I do not know that there is no God, but I do not believe in God, and have good reasons to think that the concept of God is socially and psychologically constructed.

That makes perfect sense to me. The thing about calling yourself an atheist is you're just saying one very specific thing; that you don't believe in god/gods. It's a negative statement that doesn't say much at all, really. It's helpful, but only to a point. And what other concept is defined by what you don't believe? I don't believe in leprechauns, so does that make me Aleprechaunistic?

I think that I have been slowly getting away from labeling myself as atheist first,  more to calling myself a skeptic first. I prefer it for the same reasons that Shermer does. It says that I highly value critical thinking, science and reason. It says what matters to me and how I approach the world.

Of course, people abuse the term all the time, mainly through ignorance. But if simply defined as Michael does above, then it's accurately saying a lot.

I know some of you don't like labels at all. But labels are how we understand things. For example, I labeled the drink I had this morning as coffee. It conveys information that can be useful. And for beliefs it says something about where I'm coming from. I label myself a humanist, which says a lot to someone, as does labeling myself a Formula One fan, etc. It can be very positive and shouldn't be shunned completely. It's just helpful information.

So, how do you identify yourself? Is there an order (as I find I have now) of how you want to be known, or how you see yourself?

EDIT: After the first several comments, I just want to add that I am happy to call myself an atheist. And I think atheists need to own the word just like people who are homosexual now proudly own "gay". Atheist Pride! Hey, most of us became atheists through tough critical thinking, reasoning and logic. We worked hard to get where we are. Of course, you could say the same for skeptics, which I'm also proud to call myself.

So don't think I'm encouraging you to walk on eggshells and use skeptic over atheist. Use them both! I like how MJ in the comments below said they use atheist out in the world and skeptic in the atheist movement. I have been doing something similar. I use the term that is most appropriate to the situation. Sometimes I feel they are all necessary and I call myself (deep breath) an atheist/skeptic/freethinker/humanist.

Also, I wanted this post to be short and sweet and focus mainly on the terms. But in the comments you've been right to point out that it really matters on the definition of God(s) being referred to. Are we talking about Yahweh/Allah/Jehovah? If you look just to the bible, he's been refuted. Are you talking about a deist sort of god? No, he can't be refuted because evidence of that god would be indistinguishable from natural events. Of course, when you talk to religious people, most are so wishy-washy, and move the goalposts as if they were seaweed at the edge of the sea at high tide, that I'm exhausted just thinking about it. But awesome atheists like Christopher Hitchens have thoughtfully torn down such fallacious arguments time and again.

So own the word atheist and skeptic, too!

Spectrum of Theistic Probability

Recently on my FB page, I mentioned that I guess I'm an agnostic atheist. I really don't like the term though, but out of that short scale, it's the best fit for me. I was then told about Richard Dawkin's Spectrum of Theistic Probability which I had never heard of, since I haven't read The God Delusion yet.

This scale is really interesting so I thought I'd share it with you in case you live under a rock like I do. Dawkins says that the existence of God is a scientific hypothesis. Is it? I thought a hypothesis was an idea that could be tested. How can we test for a god? Anyway, here is a spectrum of probabilities between two extremes of certainty which are represented by seven milestones along the way.

Here are the seven milestones.

  1. Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung: "I do not believe, I know."

  2. De facto theist. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. "I cannot know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there."

  3. Agnostic leaning towards theism. Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. Technically agnostic but leaning towards theism. "I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God."

  4. Completely impartial agnostic. Exactly 50 per cent.  "God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable."

  5. Agnostic leaning towards atheism. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism. "I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical."

  6. De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero.  "I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."

  7. Strong atheist. "I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung 'knows' there is one."


I think, like Dawkins, if you are an atheist who values evidence, you would avoid labeling yourself a 7. Dawkins considers himself to be a 6 and I am comfortable with calling myself a De facto atheist as well.

Because, after all, I am an atheist based on lack of evidence of gods. If there were verifiable, repeatable evidence from a god (and I could prove it wasn't hallucinations, delusions, insanity, etc), and everyone saw God, well, it would have to be pretty substantial, but if there were extraordinary evidence that was repeatable and verifiable, then I guess I'd have to change my mind.

Where do you fall on the scale? Why? And what would it take for you to change your mind?

Atheists: Have You Ever Had A Mystical Experience?

I'm reading a book called The God Part of the Brain by Matthew Alper. Mostly, I think it's a pretty interesting book. (there's one thing that really bugs me about it, but otherwise it's a good read). Anyway, he talks about how mystical experiences are found across cultures, which implies that there is a genetic component to them. In other words, every culture in recorded history talks about having mystical experiences so it must be something happening in the brain that is genetic. There must be genes associated with the way the brain works in certain circumstances that cause that phenomenon in people around the world.

Let's define a mystical experience first. Dan Merkur, author of Gnosis: An Esoteric Tradition of Mystical Visions and Unions, lists the five most common symptoms of a mystical experience (from The God Part of the Brain, pg 134)

  • a sense of unity or totality

  • a sense of timelessness

  • a sense of having encountered ultimate reality

  • a sense of sacredness

  • a sense that one can not adequately describe the richness of their experience


I was deeply religious as a child, from about age 4 to 12. I was so terrified of burning in hell that I was baptized 3 times in 3 different churches. I went to Sunday school, church, bible camp, I sang hymns, I prayed, I studied and read my bible, and had bible lessons for a short while. But in all those years, I never once had a mystical experience. I never felt god. I never felt the touch of the divine.

Pure Atheism vs Skeptical Atheism

Quite some time ago I noticed that all atheists do not approach nonbelief the same. I, for one, was first a doubter, then an agnostic, then an atheist who still believed in woo, then a full on skeptic and atheist. One of my new friends on Facebook, Cursus Walker, put it clearly the other day in a strange conversation a bunch of atheists had in a new group I joined called People for the Ethical Treatment of Atheists. (lol!)

Cursus Walker said, "I make a distinction between Pure and Skeptical Atheism. The former refers only to lacking belief in gods, while the latter extends the attitude to all supernaturalism."

I couldn't agree more! I like the terms and thought I'd share them with you.

Pure Atheism: A lack of belief in gods.

Skeptical Atheism: A lack of belief in all things supernatural.

As a skeptical atheist, I have trouble understanding how people can believe in ghosts, ESP, life after death, or anything along those lines, while not believing in any gods. So the concepts aren't mutually exclusive. But it still amazes me to run into atheists who use no skepticism or logical reasoning when it comes to supernatural woo. Can't you just feel the cognitive dissonance?

And why do you think that is? Is it a need for comfort? Is it fear of the unknown and death? Is it ignorance in science and the laws of nature? All of the above? Probably.

Of course, as synchronicity would have it, I stumbled upon a QualiaSoup video (thanks to my awesome husband) shortly after and it was so good I have to share it with you here. It's kind of relevant, but excellent in its own right. About 10 minutes long.

Putting Faith in its Place

Conversations With christians - Beth 1 - First Question

I got an email from another christian last week! We'll call her Beth. Like the other christians who have wanted to talk to me about god, she doesn't want to argue.
funny-pictures-bear-orders-an-eskimo-pie

Here's what she said in her opening email:
Upon reading your "12 Steps to Enlightenment" I saw a comment from someone much like myself who was genuinely curious as to why you believe what you believe and how you came to such conclusions. I too would like to know, if you do not mind.
I'd like to make it clear I am not here to prove to you a deity exists or that I'm right or wrong. I just want to talk in depth with someone about it without it turning into an argument.

I am not interested in proving there is a God, but rather figuring out the absolute truth behind the origin of life. Although I admit I am a Christian, I still am open to learning about other possibilities.

I had to reply to this second statement:

You say you want to figure out the absolute truth behind the origin of life. I might just say that I will freely admit, and I think all atheists would agree, we have no idea what the “absolute truth” is of the origin of life. That’s what science is about. Trying to figure that out. But no one knows. Not christians, not muslims, and not atheists or scientists. All we can do is guess and ask questions and test and explore. Anyone who says they know the origins of life is lying to you and to themselves.

She hasn't responded yet.

After making sure I could use our conversations as inspiration on HDC, here's what she asked me:
Do you equate religion with deities or do you view them as separate? In other words, do you think man created God or Gods, or do you think that despite religion's obvious flaws, God is not defined by them?

How Many Gods Are In The Bible?

lolcatgods

Let's start with what is probably the most famous and most used excerpt from the Bible: the ten commandments. Actually all we really need is the first commandment. Exodus 20 verses 2-4 are typically what comprises the first commandment: "I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image." I think the second sentence (Exodus 20:3) says it all; Yahweh admits there are other gods, but tells his people he is number one.

Christians vehemently subscribe to the view that the Bible proves the existence of Yahweh. They also view all other gods as fake or myths.

Does the Bible ever actually say the others are fake gods? This might just be arguing technicalities, but as I recall the Bible refers to them as false gods. In fact most of the time the Bible doesn't even imply that much, often just referring to them as gods.

This seems to indicate that Yahweh (or at least the Bible authors) knew these other gods existed. Yahweh does mention that he is jealous (who would he have to jealous of besides other gods), and that his people should worship no other gods before him. The theme seems to repeat often through the Old Testament: acknowledgment of other gods, and then reinforcing that they are the wrong gods.

If the Bible provides repeated 'proof' of Yahweh, doesn't this same argument work as proof of other gods? Especially when you consider that Yahweh himself acknowledges the existence of these other gods.

So based on this information, couldn't we imply that anyone who believes in the existence of Yahweh should thus believe in the existence of these other gods? Even if they don't worship these other gods, wouldn't it make sense to concede they exist?

But how many other gods are there in the Bible? Probably more than you think, and definitely more than most Christians think.


































































































































Some of the Gods Mentioned in the Bible
not an exhaustive list
AdrammelechII Kings 17:31Sepharvite sun god (day to Anammelech's night).
AnammelechII Kings 17:31Sepharvite lunar goddess (night to Adrammelech's day).
AsherahII Kings 23:6
& Jeremiah 7:18
Yahweh's consort; the mother goddess and "queen of heaven."
AshimaII Kings 17:30Samaritan lunar goddess.
AshtorethI Kings 11:05Canaanite goddess (version of Ishtar).
Baal or Ba'alI Kings 18:19Canaanite god ("lord" or "master") of fertility, vegetation, and storms.
Baal-berithJudges 8:33A regional variation/aspect of Baal.
Baal-PeorNumbers 25:03Moabite regional variation/aspect of Baal.
Baal-zebubLuke 11:19Philistine/Ekronian regional variation/aspect of Baal.
BaalimI Kings 18:18Canaanite gods ("lords" or "masters"), a collective of the different aspects of Baal.
BelIsiah 46:01Assyrian/Babylonian/Sumerian god ("lord" or "master") aspect of Baal.
ChemoshI Kings 11:07Moabite war god.
DagonI Samuel 05:02Philistine/Ekronian/Babylonian god of grain and agriculture.
Diana of the EphesiansActs 19:35Ephesian moon and nature goddess, (equivalent of the Greeks Artemis).
JupiterActs 14:12King of the Roman gods.
MercuriusActs 14:12Roman god of communication and travel, and messenger of the gods. Also known as Mercury.
MilcomI Kings 11:05 & 07Ammonite god of fire (also known as Moloch, Molech, Molekh, or Molek).
Nebo or NebuIsiah 46:01Assyrian/Babylonian/Chaldean god of wisdom and writing (Some scholars think Moses may be a humanized adaption of Nebu).
NergalII Kings 17:30Cuth/Assyrian/Babylonian war and underworld god.
NibhazII Kings 17:31Avites god.
NisrochII Kings 19:37Assyrian god of agriculture; also called Dagon, and could be a different version of Nusku.
RimmonII Kings 05:18Babylonian/Syrian storm god; also known as Ramman or Rammon, and most likely an alternate version of Baal.
Succoth-benothII Kings 17:30Babylonian fertility goddess ("she who produces seed").
TammuzEzekial 8:14Assyrian/Babylonian/Sumerian god of food and vegetation.
TartakII Kings 17:31Avites god.

Then there is Yahweh, how many names can one god have? Besides Yahweh (YHWH) there's the mistranslated Jehovah, the coincidentally plural Adonai, the name given to Moses as Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh, then Elohim and El with all their sub-forms, the poetic combination of El and Yahweh Elyon, the name given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as Shaddai (and there are more).

There was even a time when he was referred to as The Seven: Eloah, Elohim, Adonai, Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh, Yahweh, Shaddai, Zebaot.

I've run down a side tangent a little now, but think about this for a moment: Is Yahweh even a monotheistic god? You really could argue that he is almost polytheistic. From the Jewish take on him, look at all these different aspects and versions; seems more like multiple gods they tried to cram into one. Then from the Christian take, look at the father, the son, and the holy ghost; seems like its just taking multiple gods and forcing them all into a single being.

Just a final note, check these contradictions on Skeptics Annotated Bible; seems the verses for multiple gods far outweigh the verses for a single god.

Thanks to Norbert Sykes for the original list.