An Evening With Heathens

Sunday evening my group, Morgantown Atheists, had an evening at the local UU church to talk about heaven and hell around the world throughout time. We had a good turnout, including a Christian and a WVU professor of history, both of whom had never been there before. We all thought it was rather funny that the heater had been turned on in the church sometime before, so it was 99°. At least it was a dry heat. So we were sort of practicing in case we were wrong.

One of our regular members, Jason, brought his wife, Alise, who is a Christian. I actually met Alise in the blogosphere when she wrote that excellent article awhile ago called Surviving a Conversation With An Atheist, about what stereotypical assumptions not to make when you talk to one of us. So it was really neat to meet her in person then go out to dinner afterward with everyone and talk a bit more.

Unfortunately we didn't do much more than scratch the surface of what Alise believes, but my main goal was to make sure she was welcome and that she had an opportunity to at least share what her church teaches. (I should also note, Alise is extremely well spoken and seemed perfectly capable of handling her own!) But sometime over coffee I'd love to know more about what Alise believes herself, which she says is "complicated".

Anyway, she sent me a message this morning saying that she had blogged about her evening out with us heathens and it was so well-written I wanted to share it with you. Here it is, in its entirety:

Heaven and Hell with Atheists
by Alise Write

I've been meaning to attend a meeting of the local atheist group with Jason for a while now, but I've been unable to make it work due to conflicting schedules. When he told me that the group was going to be discussing heaven and hell this week and in light of some of the reading I've been doing recently, I thought it would be interesting to go and see what these folks had to say (the 99 degree temperature in the church where we met was cause for much mirth throughout the evening!).

Getting Sick of Militant christians In My Family

I just reactivated my Facebook account. (please befriend me, if you like! I'm Neece Campione over there. Just let me know you're from here!) So much of my family seems to only converse by Facebook these days, so I gave in and finally went back to it. If you can't beat 'em.... Oh jeez... I just got a fever and reactivated my Twitter account too (ZeNeece over there) oh the madness!

ANYHOO... where was I? Oh, yeah. Facebook and family. What's the deal with everyone being so god this, jesus that lately? And they're so in-my-face about it. I am pretty sure they all know I'm an atheist. Where's the respect? Why can't they tone it down? It's incredibly - dare I say it - offensive to me to have to be bombarded with this sheeple thinking every day. My friends are all atheists (how interesting, don't you think? LOL), but the family... they're unbearable. In the last week, every conversation with them has involved their invocation of their holy lord and savior, all to my irritation.

Now, I know you will probably disagree with me, but I haven't said a word to any of them. I've politely ignored the pleas that I pray for them or the requests for a miracle to save them from their bad situations (which they got themselves into ... sans god). Being on Facebook really has it in my face even more. They want to chat with me all day and it seems that the invocations to god come fast and furious. It's maddening. Or the stuff they leave on their pages - it's like swimming in a pool of religious hallmark cards, and all the papercuts that would cause.

I know that this is my fault. I've kept my mouth shut all these years and now they just walk all over me. One of them actually gets really frustrated and snippy with me when I say happy holidays instead of merry christmas. She goes on and on about putting the christ back in christmas all through december. Unbearable. Oh, I should mention, 98% of these family members are in-laws. Yeah, that's probably important, isn't it?

So, I feel like I've reached a crossroads. Granted, it's my fault for indulging them for so long. But how do I restore my sanity now? Do I say, 'HEY, you are all idiots! There's no invisible sky daddy!" Ok, that's a bit harsh. Um, do I post pro-atheist stuff all over my facebook page? Hmm, that's so passive aggressive, and easy for them to ignore, which would leave me where I am now.

I want to be nice and respectful. But no one is respecting me. I'm so sick of their god being thrown in my face all the time. I have a feeling that most of them will be offended by any little thing I do or say, then will pointedly ignore that it was said, and just shout jesus-isms from the rooftops even louder.

So I'm asking for your help. Like I said, I am pretty sure most of them already know I'm an atheist. I give them respect but get none in return. How do I get some sanity back? Is it even possible? Or do I have to just become a hermit in a shack in the woods, and get myself a nice old typewriter? I'm so frustrated!

Conversations with Roger The christian 1 - The Basics

The other day I got the following comment. I know we've covered these questions before, but since it was an invitation to a dialogue I thought a post was in order as opposed to a reply. I try to always be open to conversing about beliefs and the lack thereof. Before I tackle the questions, perhaps we should set some ground rules?

• Let's find some common ground to begin. What can we both agree on? (How to Argue)


• No personal attacks or insults. I guess that's a given, but it doesn't hurt to add it here. (Ad Hominem Logical Fallacy)


• Let's establish here that we will be respectful of each other, and argue fairly.


• If you want to end the conversation, just say so. No hard feelings.

I can't think of anything else offhand. If anyone has anything to add to this, please let me know!

Roger said:

I have found your website to be interesting to say the least! I will be honest with you, I am a christian and I do not believe the same as you (obviously). I do however wonder about a few things. Most of the athiests that I have met in my life have some underlying reason as to why the reject religion. I guess my question is have you always not believed in a God or did something happen in your past that caused you to reject the ideals of religion. Please, don’t get me wrong. I am not trying to start an argument, I’m just curious. I don’t believe in religion because really, to say a person is “christian” means that they have a personal belief and relationship with God.

Hey Roger. Well, the first thing I noticed in your comment is that you made broad, sweeping generalizations about atheists. I understand you're basing it on your experience, but I just want to clarify. Atheism is a philosophy. So people of all walks of life will hold this lack of belief, all for different reasons. All I can do is talk about my experience as an atheist, married to an atheist, with atheist friends and a predominantly religious family.

I have to say, your choice of wording is rather inflammatory. What kind of christian are you? What church do you go to? How do you define yourself? Why do you want a dialogue with an atheist? Did I misunderstand? What do you want to get out of talking to me? Your last sentence in the above paragraph makes no sense, by the way. It totally contradicts the rest of your comment. What did you mean there?

My de-conversion story explains the whole thing, but basically I was a good little christian until about age 12 when I started to see the blatant hypocrisy of the church. It was a long road of questioning and trying to understand history and religion until one day I just realized, hey, I'm an atheist. What a relief.

Most religions today are biased to their own personal belief(s). Most people want to force their beliefs on others (christian or atheist or hindu or muslim, etc.,). So, to my next question. I do not mean to stereotype but, every (and I do mean every) atheist I have ever met, works twice as hard to get people to stop believing in God than most “christians” work to get people to believe. If in fact, atheists do wish to stop the world from “believing” does that not make them a religion in and of themselves?

Funny, I find that to be the reverse. You probably know a lot more atheists than you realize. Some will just not say anything or even mention religion to a christian. That's how I handle it with the religious members of my family. This blog, for instance, isn't to try to convert religious people. It's for people on the fence, who are trying to deconvert, or who are already atheists of some sort.

I understand that faith is a great security blanket for people so I don't go out of my way to talk about religion to anyone who doesn't start the conversation. I'm not a confrontational person. So maybe it's just the crowd of people you have been around. Because there are lots of people like me. Again, there are atheists with all different kinds of personalities. Just like there are religious people who are completely offensive and obnoxious with their faith, as well as the other extreme of christian who just tries to be a good person and basically keeps their faith to themselves. And there are all kinds of people in between.

Again, I am not trying to offend. I am just looking for answers to my questions. I will not change my beliefs and I will not try and force mine on someone else. I would encourage everyone to look beyond those tangible things in life and look to things that are not known by senses. Self reflection is what causes most people to turn to religion and sometimes even to turn from it.

As for Craig, I am sorry that he stopped his dialogue with you. I find it interesting when people of opposing beliefs can maintain a conversation. If you would like I could converse with you about why I believe what I believe. Up to you…

Thanks,

Roger

So it's up to you, Roger. If you're willing to dialogue fairly, just email or reply here by comment. Just remember, it's a dialogue. Your last line leaves me wondering if that's what you had in mind. If not, if you just want to proseletyze, no need to waste anyone's time.

No More Conversations With Craig the christian

Craig ended our conversations. I guess I offended him which I don't really understand. I tried to be so careful. I never attacked him directly (ad hominem), I was generally exceedingly polite, and never said anything that was untrue. I simply talked about whatever he brought up. I went over all of our emails and I am pretty sure I couldn't have been any more careful or respectful. How that is taken as offensive I just don't understand. And he is the one who came to me to to start the dialogue in the first place.

Anyway, I'm kind of bummed out about it because I felt like I really got to explain things that I was taking for granted, which is the best way of learning: when you try to teach others what you know. Some of the stuff I talked about I had to learn or look up to clarify what I was vague on. That was cool too. So it was good. I thought it was good for both of us because I felt that Craig was getting to clarify his beliefs.

Here is the last quote from his final email:

Thank you for the experience, I did learn a lot. But I think I'll stick to what I know.

I'll let his words speak for themselves. But I think I said something in conversation 5 that addresses this concept:
I said:

...Sure, at some point we have to rely on the findings and authorities of others. For you that’s ministers or religious leaders. For me, it’s scientists that have been peer reviewed. Huge difference. I don’t take gravity on faith. When I let go of something and it falls, I see evidence of gravity, each and every single time I drop something. The common evidence is apparent to every single person on the planet. But still, it took scientists to do careful experiments, then to share those results, then have them verified and checked, and have other scientists to do the same experiments before the law of gravity was considered more or less a given.

Even now it isn’t a solid fact. We understand that more information through further research could always come to light and the law might need tweaking a bit. That’s the beauty of science. It grows and changes as we learn and grow and change. That’s not blind faith.

And that's what I think. I feel I learned and grew by conversing with Craig. He said things that made me say, "what?" and then I had to figure out how to explain why that didn't make any sense. I can't speak for Craig, but maybe he really didn't want to hear what an atheist had to say. Do you think he wanted to change my mind? If anything, I feel my foundation has been strengthened as an atheist by the challenge of trying to share what I held to be accurate.

Anyway, that's that. Maybe someday another christian who really does want to exchange ideas will come along. Until then we'll just have to dance naked around bonfires and celebrate our wicked, heathen ways.

Here are all 5 conversations:

1. What is atheism to you?


2. Biblical interpretations and a logical fallacy


3. More cherry-picking


4. Interpretation


5. More interpretations

The Virgin Mary Gets Sexed Up In Chile

Rawr! The Virgin Mary is SEXY!

I think I may convert to catholicism! Will she welcome me into her warm and ample bosom?

This story is really great. Ricardo Oyarzun, a fashion designer in Chile, is supposedly having a show on the 22nd (unconfirmed date) in Santiago. The models will be dressed like the Virgin Mary. And apparently Mary was a real knockout.