Logical fallacies abounded. Apologetics was tossed about wantonly. It was mind-numbing in its banality.
I was even told, by the same woman, that I am more Christian than other people she knows, and that Christ acts through me. Which I find to be offensively condescending and meaningless at the same time.
I'm good simply because it's the right thing to do. I don't need a god that I can't experience in any meaningful way to work through me to do good. I do it all on my own. If anything works through me to do good, of course we all know it's the Flying Spaghetti Monster, May You All Be Touched By His Noodly Appendage. Or maybe it's the dragon in my garage (if I had a garage, this would probably be the case!)
Not to mention, if Christ acts through me, she is implying that I have no free will, that I am just a puppet of Jesus. Isn't free will very important to Christians? Another blatant contradiction.
I felt like they were proselytizing to me. One of them is a friend of the other, not even of me. So I informed them that I've denied the Holy Ghost, which is the unforgivable sin. It's a one way ticket to Hell.
Then of course they nitpicked the bible and said that it has to be interpreted properly, and soon fell back on saying that only special magic priests in the Catholic church are connected enough to the Almighty to be able to interpret such things (and change them arbitrarily, such as Limbo for babies).
By this time, I had completely lost interest. What's the point of arguing with people like this? They wanted to nitpick interpretations of their holy book. They wanted to explain why their view of things was Right and why I couldn't understand because I hadn't read all the catholic dogma and I was just a godless heathen with my back turned to God.
I admit I got a bit snippy and told them that I didn't care to nitpick the details of their delusional belief system based on an old collection of historical and fictional rantings of desert goat herders from the Bronze Age.
In other words, if the books aren't divinely inspired, which I'm pretty sure they aren't, then what's the point of reading Catholic canon and old apologetic ramblings?
In other words, if the books aren't divinely inspired, which I'm pretty sure they aren't, then what's the point of reading Catholic canon and old apologetic ramblings?
Anyway, it got me thinking of the passages of the bible that I had quoted to these people. Here they are: (NIV)
“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”
But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
~
What is blasphemy? What does it mean to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit? What is the Holy Spirit, anyway? Why is it ok to blaspheme against Jesus (notice God isn't even mentioned here) but against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable?
Blasphemy: from Greek - "I injure" and "reputation". Speaking ill, impious speech, slander, speaking evil, defaming.
Thomas Aquinas said that it's a sin committed directly against God - the most grievous sin.
The Baptist Confession of Faith says, "Therefore, to swear vainly or rashly by the glorious and awesome name of God…is sinful, and to be regarded with disgust and detestation. …For by rash, false, and vain oaths, the Lord is provoked and because of them this land mourns.” (God is so easily provoked! How human!)
So it matters who you ask and is open to interpretation, but it seems like it's "an impious utterance or actions concerning God or sacred things." One minister said it had to do with "mocking the works of the Holy Spirit, with the intent on keeping others from wholeheartedly following Christ."
Catholic Catechism has 6 specific sorts of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It's all a bunch of mumbo jumbo not worth listing.
NOTE: Have you ever noticed that Catholics, especially those versed in apologetics, all have the same sort of "speech"? I get the same "feeling" whenever I read any of them, namely extreme irritation and the feeling that they are committing a skeevy logical fallacy just by the manner of their speech: Proof by Intimidation/Argumentum Verbosium (Proof by Verbosity)
So it matters who you ask and is open to interpretation, but it seems like it's "an impious utterance or actions concerning God or sacred things." One minister said it had to do with "mocking the works of the Holy Spirit, with the intent on keeping others from wholeheartedly following Christ."
Catholic Catechism has 6 specific sorts of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It's all a bunch of mumbo jumbo not worth listing.
NOTE: Have you ever noticed that Catholics, especially those versed in apologetics, all have the same sort of "speech"? I get the same "feeling" whenever I read any of them, namely extreme irritation and the feeling that they are committing a skeevy logical fallacy just by the manner of their speech: Proof by Intimidation/Argumentum Verbosium (Proof by Verbosity)
Holy Spirit: the third "person" in the Holy Trinity. So it's part of the triune god manifested in one divine being called the Godhead.
Really, could it be more vague and complex and still say nothing at all?
Blaspheming against the Holy Spirit (so you know how to do it correctly!): It's hard to say what this really entails. It's different depending on which sect you choose.
Basically you have to deny the Holy Spirit. But I think you also need to show some sort of malice toward it as you slander it. (I'm assuming the Holy Spirit is an it?)
For some Christians, you achieve this by persistently denying Christ's offer of salvation. You reject the Holy Spirit and Christ.
For others, you have to say that Jesus' works were through the power of Satan, or that Jesus was possessed by demons. Or you deny the ability of God's power.
I think that it implies that God exists, though. So according to some, atheists can't deny the Holy Spirit, which is ironic, isn't it?
Anyway, let me say this again publicly as clearly as I can so all Christians can forever stop trying to proselytize to me:
I DENY THE HOLY SPIRIT. The Holy Spirit is Not Holy. It does not exist. It is a delusion, just like Jesus' divinity and God himself. God has no power, because he was created by man. Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are all made up myths and fairy tales for people who need to believe in a heavenly father and in eternal life.
Once we needed these fairy tales because we didn't understand thunder and lightning. The world was full of terrifying unknowns. Now we understand nature more every day with Science.
And just for good measure: God Dammit!
RAmen!
Resources
Blasphemy:
Basically you have to deny the Holy Spirit. But I think you also need to show some sort of malice toward it as you slander it. (I'm assuming the Holy Spirit is an it?)
For some Christians, you achieve this by persistently denying Christ's offer of salvation. You reject the Holy Spirit and Christ.
For others, you have to say that Jesus' works were through the power of Satan, or that Jesus was possessed by demons. Or you deny the ability of God's power.
I think that it implies that God exists, though. So according to some, atheists can't deny the Holy Spirit, which is ironic, isn't it?
Anyway, let me say this again publicly as clearly as I can so all Christians can forever stop trying to proselytize to me:
I DENY THE HOLY SPIRIT. The Holy Spirit is Not Holy. It does not exist. It is a delusion, just like Jesus' divinity and God himself. God has no power, because he was created by man. Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are all made up myths and fairy tales for people who need to believe in a heavenly father and in eternal life.
Once we needed these fairy tales because we didn't understand thunder and lightning. The world was full of terrifying unknowns. Now we understand nature more every day with Science.
And just for good measure: God Dammit!
RAmen!
Resources
Blasphemy:
Holy Spirit:
The concept of the Holy Spirit was the first thing to get dropped from my Credo when I was a kid. I just thought it was stupid and contrived, and really didn't add substance to anything in the message. It's also poorly supported by the scriptures, there's a lot of ink spilled to retrofit it into the New Testament based on a few sentences kludged together.
ReplyDeleteReligions don't own good / bad behavior. They just borrow both from what the universe puts out there.
ReplyDeleteJohn Loftus did a good analysis on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit: http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/12/blasphemy-challenge-is-it-what-jesus.html
ReplyDeleteI never know how to talk about the "holy spirit." It never seems to be supposed to do anything in the aspects of Christianity that I'm talking about, and I'm never sure whether it's God or Jesus or whether the two of them are the same or whether the three of them (plus the holy spirit) are the same so when God does something it's like the Holy Spirit does it too? Seriously this concept just makes no sense at all!! It's like that pseudo-intellectual poet kid you might have known in high school, who spouted total crap and acted like it was profound. Nice try, not getting by us.
ReplyDelete[Note: there is a little red oval above my comment box, after I tried to post it. I think it might be the border for an error message that is not displaying? Sorry if this posts twice, but I made a couple small changes and I'm about to try again.]
I don't even remember much about the Holy Spirit when I was a Christian. It is pretty stupid, contrived, and poorly supported in the bible. I agree, Anemone. The more I study the bible the more I realize there was a Lot of retrofitting, and trying to make things work.
ReplyDeleteReligions most definitely don't own good behavior, I agree! They just relabel it and try to claim it as their own.
Thanks for that article Andy. That was very interesting and helpful! I recommend it.
Lol, NFQ, it hardly matters, really, does it? The Holy Spirit is like the third wheel on a date. No one pays him much attention.
I'm not sure about the little red oval. It only posted once and all seems to be in order? Blogger comments are very different than Wordpress. :|
Look at the context of the Matthew passage. Jesus seems to be complaining that his enemies are attributing his works to Satan (well, Beelzebub). Jesus then contrasts that assertion with what's evidently his own opinion, namely, that he's casting out demons by the Holy Spirit. That's when he warns them about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. So, basically, I used to teach that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was when the works of the Holy Spirit were ascribed to Satan. I always inserted a little made-up theology of my own, though, and said this probably had to be done knowingly. Which meliorated it somewhat, but really didn't make a lot of sense. Why would anyone who knew the Holy Spirit had done something say that Satan actually had? It made me feel better, though, since I worried that I might have made the mistake myself at one time or another. After all, isn't everything at root either the work of Satan or the Holy Spirit. It can all become quite a muddle and it's easy to get them mixed up. I mean, look what God told Moses & Co. to do to the Canaanites. I would've thought maybe Satan.... ;-)
ReplyDelete“Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. ” (Bible, New Testament, Matthew 12:32)
ReplyDeleteThere was the First Aion Age when Jesus was walking the Earth and arguing with the Pharisees, which corresponds to when Jesus said “This age” (Bible, New Testament, Matthew 12:31-32)
There was the Second Aion Age when Jesus was dead in the tomb, which corresponds to when Jesus said “the age to come” (Bible, New Testament, Matthew 12:31-32)
There is a the Third Aion Age when Jesus was resurrected alive again and also is the Age when Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit is forgiven and is also the age that we are in now. This age goes on for eternity.
Thus ALL GO TO HEAVEN and nothing changed about grace.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the term word for unbelief.
ALL GO TO HEAVEN BECAUSE unbelief is forgiven.
A Time in the Life of Jesus is an Age because Jesus is God and is that important.
“Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. ” (Bible, New Testament, Matthew 12:32)
Matthew 12:32 is when Jesus canceled the Old Code of the law found in Matthew 12:31.
“And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.” (Bible, New Testament, Matthew 12:31)
“Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. ” (Bible, New Testament, Matthew 12:32)
In the Third age blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is forgiven along with all sins.
Jesus died for You You will go to heaven.