I'm in the Wrong Business

Every once in awhile I think about how people like me are just trying to get by when churches are raking in the dough from willing sheep. Sometimes I even tell my husband that we should do something with our statuses as official reverends. Yes, I'm actually a reverend and have been for about 13 years. I don't do anything with it though, because, as you know, I'm also a godless heathen.

While atheists are usually somewhere in the middle to upper class, we certainly aren't on par with the churches in terms of wealth and power. So sometimes I think I should see about starting my own heathen church. Imagine the good we could do while cashing in on those faith-based initiatives.

Money.co.uk wrote an article recently called The Business of Religion which I wanted to share with you.

Here are some highlights:

The Catholic Church

• Worth hundreds of billions worldwide


• 1.81 billion followers worldwide


• Notorious for Pope Ratz saying condoms actually help the spread of AIDs and for many cases of abusing innocent children.


• Fortune comes from priceless works of art. The catholic church was implicated in the disappearance of Nazi gold, discovered in a shrine in Fatima in which the church admitted to having in 2000. They also make money from tourism to the vatican.


• They are one of the largest providers of humanitarian care and relief in the world. (but it's a vehicle to spread their indoctrination and increase their numbers)

The Church of England

• Worth billions


• 25 million baptized members (but I believe babies are baptized so the number is misleading, as people don't necessarily stay in the church once they grow up)


• Fortune comes from $320 million in cash donations from congregations, $400 million in legacies, events and services and $320 million in Gift-Aid donations. They used to be the biggest landowner in Britain but they sold it off to fund a multi-billion dollar investment portfolio which earns $255 million or more a year.


• Spends their money on pensions, salaries and maintaining 16,000 ancient buildings. They have 43 cathedrals which need constant care.

Scientology

• Worth unknown but definitely in the hundreds of millions, probably in the billions


• They claim to have over 8 million followers worldwide (3.5 million in the US alone), but a 2008 survey showed just 20,000 Americans identified themselves as scientologists.


• Notorious for their ridiculous beliefs and extortionist fees for spiritual growth (plus their brutal way of dealing with people who disagree with them or speak out against them)


• Fortune comes from fees incurred when someone wants to advance in the church and get "clear". It costs over $272,ooo to reach Operating Thetan VIII which is the highest rank in the church. They are basically a fee-based operation and members are encouraged to even take out loans if they can't afford the courses.


• Some of the things they have spent their money on: $114 million to forever preserve L. Ron Hubbard's writings. A cruise ship called Freewinds was $15.2 million. They spent $6 million in an ad campaign to try to neutralize the expose' of Time magazine. $3 million in gold bullion.

Televangelism

• Combined worth somewhere around $2.4 billion


• No official figures on the number of followers. It's an American phenomenon, but televises worldwide.


• Notorious for their "prosperity gospel" which states that "Jesus blesses believers with riches". Of course you have to show your belief by sending in money. They call it "seed money". Some speak in tongues, some pretend to heal the sick.


• Fortune comes from donations, ads, selling merchandise to followers and other commercial activities.


• Televangelists don't seem to mind living the life of luxury while bilking money out of desperate poor and old people. They have multi-million dollar homes, fly in private jets, and have international 'crusades' at $3,000 a night.

Neil C. Reinhardt Shows His True Colors

When someone sends me spam, I figure the information sent to me is fair game. Remember the guy who sent me the email about noni juice? I blogged about it twice: (here and here).

In the second post, I went through his email line by line and stated the logical fallacy. I made no personal attacks (except one, I'm only human after all). When I published the post, I removed his name. I wasn't trying to attack the spammer personally. I just thought it was an excellent exercise for us.

What I didn't do, is write back to the guy. As I said, it seemed like spam, and I didn't want to get into it with him. I figured I'd never hear from him again. I heard from him 5 times this evening. Oh, lucky me, I just got another one from him. That makes 6.

When he sent the first ones, he apparently hadn't seen the articles. In the first email of the evening he wrote:

"P.S. FYI The odds of you ever knowing, and/or ever meeting, anyone who is MORE truthful than I am is zero!"

To which I replied, "In my experience when someone starts out saying how [insert noble quality such as honesty, fidelity, etc. here] they usually prove to be either self-delusional or outright liars."

He didn't like that. He said later that my experience was limited. Which I have to say, he's right. My data pool is not immense. But it's a good rule of thumb in my experience. When someone tells me, "I'm so honest, I'm so faithful, I never lie, I'll always do this behavior" I will remember that. It's usually a huge red flag that they will fail in that exact respect sooner rather than later.

I'm not a psychologist but it seems to me that that there are two things going on. Either you're lying to yourself when you say such a thing, or you're lying to whoever you say it to. Or some combination thereof.

Anyway, I started to reply to this guy's email. I wanted to make it very clear that I didn't want his juice and I didn't want to argue with him. The way he talked about James Randi was another red flag I should have heeded.

He sent a long email of glowing reviews from other people. (I gather he is on a forum or something). This is anecdotal and irrelevant to me.

Another email was vague and I have no idea what it was about.

Then the kicker. Obviously he visited HDC. If you don't want to read strong language, skip this. It's exactly as he sent it in its entirety. Notice I do not do the courtesy of removing his name this time:

Sunday Looms Menacingly

I don't want to go to church on Sunday. The last time I was in church was for a wedding. Miraculously I wasn't struck by lightning when I looked up at the huge 15 foot tortured Jesus bleeding on the cross over the doorway and said, "Jesus! WTF!" Then I proceeded to bite my cheek and bury my head in my lap to keep  from laughing hysterically all through the service after Butch pointed to the fat lady who was singing some horridly off-tune song and said, "I guess that means it's over." It was not a pleasant experience.

Before that, I'd have to go back to my troubled religious youth to remember being in church. Sitting uncomfortably in straight backed pews; singing vapid, falsely cheerful songs of unworthiness and worship to an invisible sky daddy; sipping grape juice and eating stale bits of savior; getting baptized 3 times in 3 different churches to ward off eternal damnation and gnashing of teeth in the sulfurous, burning pits of hell; dealing with fake smiles on fake faces adorned in Avon makeup and festooned in Sears and Roebuck Sunday best outfits; parroting bible stories carefully cherry-picked from the sordid pages of a book filled with murder, slavery and hate.

None of it was all that pleasant. All of it was forced. No one ever seemed genuinely kind or compassionate. When I learned about hypocrisy at the age of 12 I promptly called bullshit on the whole mess of religion and refused to go again. My parents were furious, but in the end they gave up on me, content that I'd eventually get my just reward in the fiery lakes of hell.

This Sunday we're going to the mega-church about 45 minutes away. I don't want to go but my local group wants to experience it. Since I'm the Official Cat Herder, I feel like it would be a good thing to go along. Part of me wonders what it's like in a mega-church. What is the feel of the place? Something I thought church should do for people is give them a sense of belonging, of community. How can you get that in a huge auditorium? I have no idea how big this place is. So it's only fair that I actually experience it, I guess.

I have some questions that I want to answer on Sunday. Feel free to comment with other questions I can try to answer as well. Here's what I have so far. I will take notes while I'm there.

Brainwashing Little Kids With Christian Propaganda

Some things are incredibly hard to watch. Watching adults lie to children, manipulate them, turn them away from reality and science all because it's "easier" to control them, keep them in line, keep them in the church, is sickening beyond the pale.



I found this on Stupid Evil Bastard, who reviewed it quite well. But I had to share it with you because these horrid people, Ken Ham and his ilk, are killing the critical thinking of children with lies and bullshit. Get them while they're young and you maybe just get them for life.

And the mother who says it's just easier? I have nothing nice to say so I'll keep my thoughts to myself about that. But I'll just say she gets what she deserves with that kind of lazy, willfully ignorant parenting.

Nothing to me is more despicable that cultivated ignorance. Except maybe spoon feeding it to poor kids who can't reason through the lies yet.

We Need the Science Cops

The Tree Lobsters have said exactly what I was trying to say over a year ago, only much more concisely and with a lol. Don't you hate it when tree lobsters upstage you? I do!

Evolution is a sham! The earth is only 6000 years old, therefore there hasn't been
enough time for all the species to have developed from a single origin. All you have to do is look at the...

Hold it right there!

Science Police. We received complaints that you've been willfully ignoring centuries of scientific progress.
Therefore, in accordance with bylaw 27B/6, you've forfeited your right to benefit from the technology derived from said science.

Last Mr Deity Of Season Three and A Bit About the Vatican and Pope Ratz

Mr. Deity and the Quitter
Jesus gets upset when he realizes that there's no reason for his sacrifice.



I can't believe Jesse quit! He'll be back, don't you think?

Now onto more serious issues that have been weighing on my mind lately, and yours as well, most likely.

Johnny posted something on Facebook the other day that I have been meaning to share with you.

Being Good Without God Is Natural

I walked away from religion when I was 12. While it took me almost another 2 decades to become and accept that I am an atheist, I have basically lived without god for a long time. In fact, I've been an atheist for about 9 years and in that time, I have managed to refrain from killing anyone, stealing anything, cheating on my husband, and many other bad behaviors.

I do still drink copious amounts of coffee and swear a lot, but hey, nobody's perfect. :P

I've met christians who have said they would kill, rape, steal and basically go on a rampage without god watching their every move. I'm very glad those amoral people are afraid of burning in hell because they have no moral compass like most of us do. Those few people who think they need god to be good need to stay religious. They have a screw loose.

Apparently research is finding that being moral is part of our evolution. Recently I've been hearing of studies that show morality in other animals. And awhile ago I read about E. Coli and how it sometimes sacrifices itself for the good of the colony. Basically, working within the framework of your given society is beneficial in fundamental ways, and that's been with us and many other creatures for eons.

Still, religions think they have some kind of monopoly on morality. But if you actually read their "holy" books, you'll find rampant murder, religious wars, rape, killing of women and children, wholesale slaughter of people who believed differently, and on and on. Recently I read the first part of God Hates You, Hate Him Back by CJ Werleman which goes through every book of the bible. I was reminded how much god hates everyone, even his chosen people, and how much he kills people and has his people kill people, children and animals. It's heart-warming mind-numbing. That's the main gist of the old testament. (the other main theme is how the chosen people aren't worshiping god correctly, how they are worshiping other gods - wait, isn't there just one? even god admits there are others! - and generally being bad followers and need to be punished. It's very loving crazy-making to read it.)

It's About Time That The Religious Are No Longer A Protected Class

The following is a question asked of Daniel Dennett, and his answer which was in the Washington Post the other day. My comments are below.

Q: Is there widespread media bias against Christianity? Against evangelicals such as Brit Hume and Sarah Palin? Against public figures who speak openly and directly about their faith? Against people who believe as you do?

There is no media bias against Christianity. If it appears to some people that there is, it is probably because after decades of hyper-diplomacy and a generally accepted mutual understanding that religion was not to be criticized, we have finally begun breaking through that taboo and are beginning to see candid discussions of the varieties of religious folly in American life. Activities that would be condemned by all if they were not cloaked in the protective mantle of religion are beginning to be subjected to proper scrutiny.

There is still a lot to accomplish however. We need to change the prevailing assumptions in the same way that public opinion has been reversed on drunk driving. When I was young, drunk drivers tended to be excused because, after all, they were drunk! Today, happily, we hold them doubly culpable for any misdeeds they commit while under the influence.

Happy Halloween!

Happy Halloween everyone!

I wanted to share some great lolcats with you on my favorite holiday, while warning you of some issues that may have passed below your radar for this All Hallow's Eve.

Don't buy candy for today! Halloween is Lucifer's holy day and the candy in the store has been cursed and filled with demons according to Charisma Magazine. Kimberly Daniels wantonly tells us about the horrors of this most satanic day of the year.

I know, it's probably too late for you. You already bought your Halloween candy weeks ago. My suggestion is to eat all of the candy in one sitting while praising Lucifer as you unwrap each blasphemous piece of chocolaty evilness. If you can't light a bonfire to dance around naked in your front yard, light a candle and roast marshmallows over it. That will suffice.

Don't give the candy to those little kids that come begging at your door! It will fill their innocent little souls with demons! You really must eat the candy for yourself and imbibe the demons to help save our future from demonic possession. Daniels says it all in her diatribe. But I give you solutions. That's just the kind of blasphemous, godless heathen that I am.

Dan Saves Us A Visit To The Creation Museum

[caption id="attachment_2017" align="alignright" width="511" caption="The best picture Dan took in the museum. I smiled when I saw it. :)"][/caption]

Did you miss the Creation Museum Field Trip with PZ Myers last month? I did, and so did Dan, my friend from Rationality Now. But he and his friend decided to go to the museum not long after. He wrote up a 6 part tour that I found amazing, disturbing and depressing. His writing is excellent and thorough, quite interesting and fascinating.

So I wanted to share Dan's investigative tour with you. He sums up my feelings about the place rather perfectly. He has lots of pictures to illustrate as well.

Take a deep breath and dive in:

• Creation Museum Part 1 (which will lead you through to the other 5 parts)


• The Creation Museum Series page, with all the parts listed together

Logical Fallacy 8: Cherry-Picking

Cherry-Picking is when you count the hits and ignore the misses. It is used when only certain quotes, data, studies or research are used to support an argument while ignoring other valid and credible quotes, data, studies and research.

Cherry-picking is rampant in the religious population. For example, in my conversations with christians, I have run across religious people using this logical fallacy in 15 out of 19 entries.

This is Part 8 in a series about Logical Fallacies. We are going through one fallacy at a time. There are many types of fallacious arguments. I'm going to try to explain them with examples then find ways to help you refute those arguments when they occur. Please comment or email if there's a particular fallacy you want me to tackle, or if you have success with refuting an argument using a good technique you can share.

Examples:

When christians speak of the bible, they invariably cherry-pick the parts that support whatever they are trying to get across. Homosexuality is a prime example (leviticus mentions it twice). Of course they don't mind eating shellfish or wearing a poly-cotton blend shirt, which is expressly forbidden in subsequent chapters. We've all dealt with the hypocrisy of the old testament, especially the homosexuality issue. Instead I'm going to share a bit of the new testament, which most people use to show how kind and loving jesus was. I'll stick to the gospels for this exercise, to make my point:

Here are a few examples of nice things that are in the bible.

• Matthew 7:3-5: jesus says to avoid hypocrisy. Consider your own faults rather than criticizing others. Don't tell your brother he's got a mote in his eye when you have a beam in your own eye. (not an original idea, really, but it's a good lesson)
• Matthew 19:18-19: jesus talks about the commandments (notice he mentions 6 instead of 10, and the last one is not in the old testament. Also these are all secular commandments, not religious) Don't murder, don't cheat on your spouse, don't steal, don't lie, honor your parents, love your neighbor as yourself. (these are basically good rules, also not original)
• Luke 6:31: The Golden Rule. As you would have others treat you, treat them likewise. (not an original idea, either, but a good way to live)

Of course, most christians ignore the more hateful things and skip over them, or apologetically dismiss them using other logical fallacies. Here are just a few:

A christian Couple Wears A Scarlet 'A' For A Day

I was stumbling around the interwebs the other day and came across an article on Skepacabra that was so interesting, I have to share it with you.

Apparently when the Secular Student Alliance (SSA) went to the Creation Museum recently, a christian couple snuck in to see what it would be like to be an atheist. It was a bit of a social experiment. Apparently they were not prepared for how they were treated. They didn't wear atheist gear, but got name tags that proclaimed them as part of the group. They were appalled by their treatment.

First, they noticed that security had been beefed up a great deal since the wife's last visit to the museum.

While I did not have a T-shirt (a symbol anyway) it was obvious that there was a distinctive way that we were being treated because of the shared identification.  There were hateful glances, exaggerated perceptions, waxing surveillance by security, and anxious but strong ‘amens’ accompanying a lecture on “The Ultimate Proof of Creation” by Dr. Jason Lisle.
Is this how Christians treat people?  Is this how we follow Jesus’ commandment to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us?  I cannot help but think that many Christians are fearful of atheists.  It is a sort of xenophobia that runs along lines of faith and belief.  What we tend to forget is that atheists, agnostics, and evolutionists are people too.  If our attempt to preserve our belief means that we are treating these people like animals, are we really holding up principles that are based on a creation worldview?
There have rarely been times in my life that I have been ashamed of people that I call “brothers and sisters in Christ.”  This was one of them.  To be judged by people that share my beliefs because of the name tag I wore was appalling.

Yes, this is how many christians treat people. Oh, and christians are far from persecuted in this country, so that's inaccurate. But otherwise, thank you to the couple who decided to walk a mile in our shoes. Empathy can be a powerful force for understanding. If only it could open a dialogue between "us" and "them".

Palin Divorce! The Hypocrisy of the Religious Right Strikes Again!

I only have a few minutes, but I wanted to share this with you.

Palin is supposedly getting a divorce. Apparently there were affairs on both sides! This is hypocrisy of the highest order, isn't it? So much for "good" christian family values.

See the full breaking story here at Alaska Report. There's also a video there about "hurt feelings" of Palin.

A note by the editor of that site says: AlaskaReport was the first website to report that Sarah Palin was running for governor of Alaska and the first website to report that Sarah was picked as John McCain's VP candidate.

So, it seems this is probably accurate. If you hear more comment and let us know!

Religion and Sexual Predators

LAS VEGAS - A self-proclaimed prophet accused of molesting children would threaten his followers with excommunication if they did not succumb to his wishes, Las Vegas Metro police said Monday.

Benito Catello, 75, operated a non-denominational Christian church called The Ministry. Alleged victims told police that members were called “sheep” and they were instructed to call him “papa.”

A 17-year-old girl who accused Catello of molesting her said she had been a member of the church for nearly 10 years. In a police report, she said Catello instructed her to move into his spare bedroom so he could “counsel” her.

But the girl claimed Catello wanted to have sex with her and threatened to degrade her in front of other church members during daily services if she did not comply. The teen also told police Catello threatened to excommunicate her and her entire family.

As a result, the girl said she obeyed his demands and had sex with Catello multiple times. Police said she came forward after she convinced her parents not to let her move back in with Catello.

Catello is also accused of molesting a 13-year-old girl who went to visit her grandmother when the woman wasalso staying at Catello’s home.

When confronted about the accusations, police said Catello’s answer was that if the girls said it happened, it must be true. When asked to clarify, Catello is quoted saying that he was “full of the spirit and can’t help what he does” when he is “full” of it.

Catello is charged with 27 counts of sexual assault, and lewdness with a person under the age of 14.

Full of it? That's this guy's excuse? And the members were called "sheep"? What is it with religion and sexual predators?

He's hoping to use the "full of it" excuse to mollify his sheep. I think religion in general either draws pedophiles and other sexual predators because they know they will have easy and private access to victims under the guise of "counseling", or that some individuals, once in a position of power, become corrupt and feel they are above man's law, and use the Bible or Holy Spirit to justify their actions. But here's the thing---if religion gives people moral guidance and direction, how could this happen? It should be obvious that it doesn't. Instead, it provides cover for wolves to prey upon the sheep.

Now, I know some would argue that religion is not to blame, it is the pervert who misused the trust placed in them who took advantage of the trusting soul who got molested or taken advantage of. But that begs the question, in my mind anyway, of "Where was God in all this?" I mean, come on, doesn't most of this stuff happen in His house? And if He's all powerful, why does He let this happen in His name?

Simple, direct questions which have been asked and argued over ad infinitum. But the fact remains---crimes are committed, and God does nothing to stop them.

"Imagine No Religion" is Blasphemous?

Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF.org) recently put up a billboard near Pell City, Alabama. One of their classics, modifying a line from one of John Lennon's songs: "Imagine No Religion."

The sign is located on east-bound I-20 just past the Pell City exit. Atheist billboards really are nothing new, especially to those of us in the atheist community. What makes this one notable is that it is believed to be a first in Alabama; and is one of a very few in a bible-belt state. Eleanor Strote commented "A lot of people didn't even know there was an atheist group in town. And they do now."

FFRF local chapter president, Pat Cleveland said it is not meant to be a recruiting tool, but meant to inform. "There are people of no religion in Alabama. I'm one of them." This is a way to let atheists, agnostics, and non-believers know there is a group for them in the bible-belt, "more like a member information campaign."

The local news coverage tries to sound unbiased, but when they refer to the billboard as 'impious' and 'irreverent' its obvious even they are against it. Shall we take a look at how Atheist [Bus & Billboard] Campaign got started? FFRF placed their first billboard in Wisconsin in October 2007. However the real 'war' started after JesusSaid.org ran bus advertisements inviting people to their website (in mid-2008). Upon visiting the website, people were greeted with the bold statement that "all non-Christians would burn in hell for all eternity." Way to be respectful, pious, and reverent there Christians!

Do People Need To Worship? EDITED

This is not about church so much as society and culture. Recently Farrah Fawcett died. Later in the day Michael Jackson bit the dust as well. The world seemed to forget about Farrah immediately and focus on Jacko and how much of an amazing person he was.

Do people have such short attention spans and memories? Do they so easily forget what a freak he was? Do they so mindlessly get selectively nostalgic when someone dies or a big event happens?

I am so over Jacko, not that he was ever big on my list. He was a pedophile and a full-on freak. Why is he being revered? Has the catholic church's silent acceptance of pedophilia made most people numb to such horrors when committed by the exceedingly rich? I question the cognitive processes of anyone who feels the need to worship at the feet of such sickness.

On the other hand, Farrah died at age 62 of cancer. She was a good person who actually contributed to our entertainment. When she made The Burning Bed in 1984 (which was based on a true story), she was forever changed by that experience. Not to mention, as a sex symbol, she was willing to make that movie in the first place.

I found out a few minutes ago that she left donations to shelters for abused women, as well as some of her belongings. That's wonderful and thoughtful.

But it's not as interesting, apparently, as Jacko, who slept in a hyperbaric chamber, drank "jesus juice",  was a jehovah's witness and liked to diddle little boys then pay their families off for the privilege. So the world weeps for him? That's disgusting. Why would anyone feel the need to worship such a horrid person?

Then again, why do people worship god in whatever barbaric religion he is in? Do most people need to worship and look up to someone or something above them? Is it some vestige of evolution that we have yet to shed?

EDIT: My most awesomest husband Butch has written an excellent article about Whacko Jacko, along with an exclusive photo of said molester holding some damning evidence.

Also, here are some Smoking Gun articles that may interest you:

Jackson the Predator

Jackson's Legacy (with transcript)

Oh Lordy, Kill My Oppressors, Please!

Wiley Drake, a southern baptist preacher in California went on Fox News Radio's Alan Colmes show on June 2nd and said he's praying for god to kill President Obama. Drake used to be the 2nd vice president of the southern baptist convention.

Apparently there's a special kind of prayer from psalms where you ask god to kill people for you, to vindicate your innocence and relieve you of your oppressors. It's called imprecatory prayer.

Imprecate: To call down by prayer, as something hurtful or calamitous. To invoke evil upon; curse.

Drake prayed to his god for the death of Dr. George Tiller, who was murdered in his church on May 31st. Drake called his death an answer to prayer.

(emphasis of the following quotes are mine, with my comments interspersed)

"Imprecatory prayer is agreeing with God, and if people don't like that, they need to talk to God," Drake told syndicated talk-show host Alan Colmes. "God said it, I didn't. I was just agreeing with God."

Lame! Cop-out! 'Don't blame me, it's god's responsibility! I just pestered him till he did what i demanded!'

Asked if there are others for whom Drake is praying "imprecatory prayer," Drake hesitated before answering that there are several. "The usurper that is in the White House is one, B. Hussein Obama," he said.

Later in the interview, Colmes returned to Drake's answer to make sure he heard him right.

"Are you praying for his death?" Colmes asked.

"Yes," Drake replied.

"So you're praying for the death of the president of the United States?"

"Yes."

Colmes asked Drake if he was concerned that by saying that he might be placed on a Secret Service or FBI watch list, and if he believed it appropriate to talk or pray that way.

At least he's just praying, which we know to be completely ineffectual.

How Many Gods Are In The Bible?

Let's start with what is probably the most famous and most used excerpt from the Bible: the ten commandments. Actually all we really need is the first commandment. Exodus 20 verses 2-4 are typically what comprises the first commandment: "I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image." I think the second sentence (Exodus 20:3) says it all; Yahweh admits there are other gods, but tells his people he is number one.

Christians vehemently subscribe to the view that the Bible proves the existence of Yahweh. They also view all other gods as fake or myths.

Does the Bible ever actually say the others are fake gods? This might just be arguing technicalities, but as I recall the Bible refers to them as false gods. In fact most of the time the Bible doesn't even imply that much, often just referring to them as gods.

This seems to indicate that Yahweh (or at least the Bible authors) knew these other gods existed. Yahweh does mention that he is jealous (who would he have to jealous of besides other gods), and that his people should worship no other gods before him. The theme seems to repeat often through the Old Testament: acknowledgment of other gods, and then reinforcing that they are the wrong gods.

If the Bible provides repeated 'proof' of Yahweh, doesn't this same argument work as proof of other gods? Especially when you consider that Yahweh himself acknowledges the existence of these other gods.

So based on this information, couldn't we imply that anyone who believes in the existence of Yahweh should thus believe in the existence of these other gods? Even if they don't worship these other gods, wouldn't it make sense to concede they exist?

But how many other gods are there in the Bible? Probably more than you think, and definitely more than most Christians think.

Some of the Gods Mentioned in the Bible not an exhaustive list
Adrammelech	II Kings 17:31	Sepharvite sun god (day to Anammelech's night).
Anammelech	II Kings 17:31	Sepharvite lunar goddess (night to Adrammelech's day).
Asherah	II Kings 23:6 & Jeremiah 7:18	Yahweh's consort; the mother goddess and "queen of heaven."
Ashima	II Kings 17:30	Samaritan lunar goddess.
Ashtoreth	I Kings 11:05	Canaanite goddess (version of Ishtar).
Baal or Ba'al	I Kings 18:19	Canaanite god ("lord" or "master") of fertility, vegetation, and storms.
Baal-berith	Judges 8:33	A regional variation/aspect of Baal.
Baal-Peor	Numbers 25:03	Moabite regional variation/aspect of Baal.
Baal-zebub	Luke 11:19	Philistine/Ekronian regional variation/aspect of Baal.
Baalim	I Kings 18:18	Canaanite gods ("lords" or "masters"), a collective of the different aspects of Baal.
Bel	Isiah 46:01	Assyrian/Babylonian/Sumerian god ("lord" or "master") aspect of Baal.
Chemosh	I Kings 11:07	Moabite war god.
Dagon	I Samuel 05:02	Philistine/Ekronian/Babylonian god of grain and agriculture.
Diana of the Ephesians	Acts 19:35	Ephesian moon and nature goddess, (equivalent of the Greeks Artemis).
Jupiter	Acts 14:12	King of the Roman gods.
Mercurius	Acts 14:12	Roman god of communication and travel, and messenger of the gods. Also known as Mercury.
Milcom	I Kings 11:05 & 07	Ammonite god of fire (also known as Moloch, Molech, Molekh, or Molek).
Nebo or Nebu	Isiah 46:01	Assyrian/Babylonian/Chaldean god of wisdom and writing (Some scholars think Moses may be a humanized adaption of Nebu).
Nergal	II Kings 17:30	Cuth/Assyrian/Babylonian war and underworld god.
Nibhaz	II Kings 17:31	Avites god.
Nisroch	II Kings 19:37	Assyrian god of agriculture; also called Dagon, and could be a different version of Nusku.
Rimmon	II Kings 05:18	Babylonian/Syrian storm god; also known as Ramman or Rammon, and most likely an alternate version of Baal.
Succoth-benoth	II Kings 17:30	Babylonian fertility goddess ("she who produces seed").
Tammuz	Ezekial 8:14	Assyrian/Babylonian/Sumerian god of food and vegetation.
Tartak	II Kings 17:31	Avites god.

Then there is Yahweh, how many names can one god have? Besides Yahweh (YHWH) there's the mistranslated Jehovah, the coincidentally plural Adonai, the name given to Moses as Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh, then Elohim and El with all their sub-forms, the poetic combination of El and Yahweh Elyon, the name given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as Shaddai (and there are more).

There was even a time when he was referred to as The Seven: Eloah, Elohim, Adonai, Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh, Yahweh, Shaddai, Zebaot.

I've run down a side tangent a little now, but think about this for a moment: Is Yahweh even a monotheistic god? You really could argue that he is almost polytheistic. From the Jewish take on him, look at all these different aspects and versions; seems more like multiple gods they tried to cram into one. Then from the Christian take, look at the father, the son, and the holy ghost; seems like its just taking multiple gods and forcing them all into a single being.

Just a final note, check these contradictions on Skeptics Annotated Bible; seems the verses for multiple gods far outweigh the verses for a single god.

Thanks to Norbert Sykes for the original list.

Getting Sick of Militant christians In My Family

I just reactivated my Facebook account. (please befriend me, if you like! I'm Neece Campione over there. Just let me know you're from here!) So much of my family seems to only converse by Facebook these days, so I gave in and finally went back to it. If you can't beat 'em.... Oh jeez... I just got a fever and reactivated my Twitter account too (ZeNeece over there) oh the madness!

ANYHOO... where was I? Oh, yeah. Facebook and family. What's the deal with everyone being so god this, jesus that lately? And they're so in-my-face about it. I am pretty sure they all know I'm an atheist. Where's the respect? Why can't they tone it down? It's incredibly - dare I say it - offensive to me to have to be bombarded with this sheeple thinking every day. My friends are all atheists (how interesting, don't you think? LOL), but the family... they're unbearable. In the last week, every conversation with them has involved their invocation of their holy lord and savior, all to my irritation.

Now, I know you will probably disagree with me, but I haven't said a word to any of them. I've politely ignored the pleas that I pray for them or the requests for a miracle to save them from their bad situations (which they got themselves into ... sans god). Being on Facebook really has it in my face even more. They want to chat with me all day and it seems that the invocations to god come fast and furious. It's maddening. Or the stuff they leave on their pages - it's like swimming in a pool of religious hallmark cards, and all the papercuts that would cause.

I know that this is my fault. I've kept my mouth shut all these years and now they just walk all over me. One of them actually gets really frustrated and snippy with me when I say happy holidays instead of merry christmas. She goes on and on about putting the christ back in christmas all through december. Unbearable. Oh, I should mention, 98% of these family members are in-laws. Yeah, that's probably important, isn't it?

So, I feel like I've reached a crossroads. Granted, it's my fault for indulging them for so long. But how do I restore my sanity now? Do I say, 'HEY, you are all idiots! There's no invisible sky daddy!" Ok, that's a bit harsh. Um, do I post pro-atheist stuff all over my facebook page? Hmm, that's so passive aggressive, and easy for them to ignore, which would leave me where I am now.

I want to be nice and respectful. But no one is respecting me. I'm so sick of their god being thrown in my face all the time. I have a feeling that most of them will be offended by any little thing I do or say, then will pointedly ignore that it was said, and just shout jesus-isms from the rooftops even louder.

So I'm asking for your help. Like I said, I am pretty sure most of them already know I'm an atheist. I give them respect but get none in return. How do I get some sanity back? Is it even possible? Or do I have to just become a hermit in a shack in the woods, and get myself a nice old typewriter? I'm so frustrated!

Conversations with Roger The christian 1 - The Basics

The other day I got the following comment. I know we've covered these questions before, but since it was an invitation to a dialogue I thought a post was in order as opposed to a reply. I try to always be open to conversing about beliefs and the lack thereof. Before I tackle the questions, perhaps we should set some ground rules?

• Let's find some common ground to begin. What can we both agree on? (How to Argue)


• No personal attacks or insults. I guess that's a given, but it doesn't hurt to add it here. (Ad Hominem Logical Fallacy)


• Let's establish here that we will be respectful of each other, and argue fairly.


• If you want to end the conversation, just say so. No hard feelings.

I can't think of anything else offhand. If anyone has anything to add to this, please let me know!

Roger said:

I have found your website to be interesting to say the least! I will be honest with you, I am a christian and I do not believe the same as you (obviously). I do however wonder about a few things. Most of the athiests that I have met in my life have some underlying reason as to why the reject religion. I guess my question is have you always not believed in a God or did something happen in your past that caused you to reject the ideals of religion. Please, don’t get me wrong. I am not trying to start an argument, I’m just curious. I don’t believe in religion because really, to say a person is “christian” means that they have a personal belief and relationship with God.

Hey Roger. Well, the first thing I noticed in your comment is that you made broad, sweeping generalizations about atheists. I understand you're basing it on your experience, but I just want to clarify. Atheism is a philosophy. So people of all walks of life will hold this lack of belief, all for different reasons. All I can do is talk about my experience as an atheist, married to an atheist, with atheist friends and a predominantly religious family.

I have to say, your choice of wording is rather inflammatory. What kind of christian are you? What church do you go to? How do you define yourself? Why do you want a dialogue with an atheist? Did I misunderstand? What do you want to get out of talking to me? Your last sentence in the above paragraph makes no sense, by the way. It totally contradicts the rest of your comment. What did you mean there?

My de-conversion story explains the whole thing, but basically I was a good little christian until about age 12 when I started to see the blatant hypocrisy of the church. It was a long road of questioning and trying to understand history and religion until one day I just realized, hey, I'm an atheist. What a relief.

Most religions today are biased to their own personal belief(s). Most people want to force their beliefs on others (christian or atheist or hindu or muslim, etc.,). So, to my next question. I do not mean to stereotype but, every (and I do mean every) atheist I have ever met, works twice as hard to get people to stop believing in God than most “christians” work to get people to believe. If in fact, atheists do wish to stop the world from “believing” does that not make them a religion in and of themselves?

Funny, I find that to be the reverse. You probably know a lot more atheists than you realize. Some will just not say anything or even mention religion to a christian. That's how I handle it with the religious members of my family. This blog, for instance, isn't to try to convert religious people. It's for people on the fence, who are trying to deconvert, or who are already atheists of some sort.

I understand that faith is a great security blanket for people so I don't go out of my way to talk about religion to anyone who doesn't start the conversation. I'm not a confrontational person. So maybe it's just the crowd of people you have been around. Because there are lots of people like me. Again, there are atheists with all different kinds of personalities. Just like there are religious people who are completely offensive and obnoxious with their faith, as well as the other extreme of christian who just tries to be a good person and basically keeps their faith to themselves. And there are all kinds of people in between.

Again, I am not trying to offend. I am just looking for answers to my questions. I will not change my beliefs and I will not try and force mine on someone else. I would encourage everyone to look beyond those tangible things in life and look to things that are not known by senses. Self reflection is what causes most people to turn to religion and sometimes even to turn from it.

As for Craig, I am sorry that he stopped his dialogue with you. I find it interesting when people of opposing beliefs can maintain a conversation. If you would like I could converse with you about why I believe what I believe. Up to you…

Thanks,

Roger

So it's up to you, Roger. If you're willing to dialogue fairly, just email or reply here by comment. Just remember, it's a dialogue. Your last line leaves me wondering if that's what you had in mind. If not, if you just want to proseletyze, no need to waste anyone's time.