Followup with Leah And The Case For Christ

I heard from Leah the other day! You might remember that she is my husband Butch's 18 year old cousin who asked me to watch The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel. (Initial post which started because of a Facebook exchange (discussed here)) and (Second post)

One of my friends recommended this article and podcast episode from Brian Dunning: Emergency Handbook: What to do when a friend loves woo. After reading this article I reflected on Leah, her beliefs, her lifestyle and her happiness. I had never had the intention of deconverting her, and I'm glad I replied honestly with facts to what she wanted me to watch. I think that it was a good way to handle it. But while I waited to see if Leah replied, I decided how I'd handle seeing her over the holidays. I didn't really expect to get an email reply after several days went by.

I decided to come up with one sentence to let her know that there was no pressure and we didn't have to talk about religion again if she didn't want to. I never came up with the best wording, but I was looking for a way to let her know it was water under the bridge, and that I wanted to focus on our relationship in a positive way, that was what is important to me, not our religious differences.

But she did reply. It wasn't what I expected. Somehow, she turned around what I was saying about the video to being questions I had about Christ, that I was seeking answers to. So she was seeing me as lost and confused while I see her as indoctrinated and, well, delusional. How interesting! So here is what she said:
~
Know that 1) regardless of if you were family or not, nothing you could say would change the fact that I love you. Being family is merely icing on the cake. 2) You are not at risk to "deconvert" me. I have had too much happen in my short life already to confirm what I believe to be true for you, or any one else, to ever take that away from me. The faith I have in Jesus Christ has never been stronger, and I am completely sold out and in love with Him. It would take a lot more than a lengthy email or two to even put a dent in my relationship with Christ.

In Search Of Zingers

Inspiration comes from many sources. Today my mother told me that some jehovah's witnesses came a-calling and she wished she had some good, quick zingers to say to let them know she's a lost cause and they need to leave and never come back. I thought that was rather funny so I'm throwing it out to you.

If someone wants to proseletyze, what is a good, quick response to let them know they are dealing with a godless heathen who is a lost cause?

Please comment with your suggestions. Then I'll do another post with a nice neat list we can keep nearby for when someone wants to "tell us the good news". ;-)

A christian Couple Wears A Scarlet 'A' For A Day

I was stumbling around the interwebs the other day and came across an article on Skepacabra that was so interesting, I have to share it with you.

Apparently when the Secular Student Alliance (SSA) went to the Creation Museum recently, a christian couple snuck in to see what it would be like to be an atheist. It was a bit of a social experiment. Apparently they were not prepared for how they were treated. They didn't wear atheist gear, but got name tags that proclaimed them as part of the group. They were appalled by their treatment.

First, they noticed that security had been beefed up a great deal since the wife's last visit to the museum.

While I did not have a T-shirt (a symbol anyway) it was obvious that there was a distinctive way that we were being treated because of the shared identification.  There were hateful glances, exaggerated perceptions, waxing surveillance by security, and anxious but strong ‘amens’ accompanying a lecture on “The Ultimate Proof of Creation” by Dr. Jason Lisle.
Is this how Christians treat people?  Is this how we follow Jesus’ commandment to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us?  I cannot help but think that many Christians are fearful of atheists.  It is a sort of xenophobia that runs along lines of faith and belief.  What we tend to forget is that atheists, agnostics, and evolutionists are people too.  If our attempt to preserve our belief means that we are treating these people like animals, are we really holding up principles that are based on a creation worldview?
There have rarely been times in my life that I have been ashamed of people that I call “brothers and sisters in Christ.”  This was one of them.  To be judged by people that share my beliefs because of the name tag I wore was appalling.

Yes, this is how many christians treat people. Oh, and christians are far from persecuted in this country, so that's inaccurate. But otherwise, thank you to the couple who decided to walk a mile in our shoes. Empathy can be a powerful force for understanding. If only it could open a dialogue between "us" and "them".

Conversations with Roger The christian 1 - The Basics

The other day I got the following comment. I know we've covered these questions before, but since it was an invitation to a dialogue I thought a post was in order as opposed to a reply. I try to always be open to conversing about beliefs and the lack thereof. Before I tackle the questions, perhaps we should set some ground rules?

• Let's find some common ground to begin. What can we both agree on? (How to Argue)


• No personal attacks or insults. I guess that's a given, but it doesn't hurt to add it here. (Ad Hominem Logical Fallacy)


• Let's establish here that we will be respectful of each other, and argue fairly.


• If you want to end the conversation, just say so. No hard feelings.

I can't think of anything else offhand. If anyone has anything to add to this, please let me know!

Roger said:

I have found your website to be interesting to say the least! I will be honest with you, I am a christian and I do not believe the same as you (obviously). I do however wonder about a few things. Most of the athiests that I have met in my life have some underlying reason as to why the reject religion. I guess my question is have you always not believed in a God or did something happen in your past that caused you to reject the ideals of religion. Please, don’t get me wrong. I am not trying to start an argument, I’m just curious. I don’t believe in religion because really, to say a person is “christian” means that they have a personal belief and relationship with God.

Hey Roger. Well, the first thing I noticed in your comment is that you made broad, sweeping generalizations about atheists. I understand you're basing it on your experience, but I just want to clarify. Atheism is a philosophy. So people of all walks of life will hold this lack of belief, all for different reasons. All I can do is talk about my experience as an atheist, married to an atheist, with atheist friends and a predominantly religious family.

I have to say, your choice of wording is rather inflammatory. What kind of christian are you? What church do you go to? How do you define yourself? Why do you want a dialogue with an atheist? Did I misunderstand? What do you want to get out of talking to me? Your last sentence in the above paragraph makes no sense, by the way. It totally contradicts the rest of your comment. What did you mean there?

My de-conversion story explains the whole thing, but basically I was a good little christian until about age 12 when I started to see the blatant hypocrisy of the church. It was a long road of questioning and trying to understand history and religion until one day I just realized, hey, I'm an atheist. What a relief.

Most religions today are biased to their own personal belief(s). Most people want to force their beliefs on others (christian or atheist or hindu or muslim, etc.,). So, to my next question. I do not mean to stereotype but, every (and I do mean every) atheist I have ever met, works twice as hard to get people to stop believing in God than most “christians” work to get people to believe. If in fact, atheists do wish to stop the world from “believing” does that not make them a religion in and of themselves?

Funny, I find that to be the reverse. You probably know a lot more atheists than you realize. Some will just not say anything or even mention religion to a christian. That's how I handle it with the religious members of my family. This blog, for instance, isn't to try to convert religious people. It's for people on the fence, who are trying to deconvert, or who are already atheists of some sort.

I understand that faith is a great security blanket for people so I don't go out of my way to talk about religion to anyone who doesn't start the conversation. I'm not a confrontational person. So maybe it's just the crowd of people you have been around. Because there are lots of people like me. Again, there are atheists with all different kinds of personalities. Just like there are religious people who are completely offensive and obnoxious with their faith, as well as the other extreme of christian who just tries to be a good person and basically keeps their faith to themselves. And there are all kinds of people in between.

Again, I am not trying to offend. I am just looking for answers to my questions. I will not change my beliefs and I will not try and force mine on someone else. I would encourage everyone to look beyond those tangible things in life and look to things that are not known by senses. Self reflection is what causes most people to turn to religion and sometimes even to turn from it.

As for Craig, I am sorry that he stopped his dialogue with you. I find it interesting when people of opposing beliefs can maintain a conversation. If you would like I could converse with you about why I believe what I believe. Up to you…

Thanks,

Roger

So it's up to you, Roger. If you're willing to dialogue fairly, just email or reply here by comment. Just remember, it's a dialogue. Your last line leaves me wondering if that's what you had in mind. If not, if you just want to proseletyze, no need to waste anyone's time.